Mark Twain quote: Arguing with Stupid People

[DSKlausler]

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Ugh... brutally true.

Endured some blathering idiot the other day; said to my daughter: Do you know how he got that way? He was raised in a family of idiots, and he was just slightly below normal - a genius in their eyes - and treated as such for a long time.
How does that saying go: "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king?"

I really have no desire to mingle in the general public. Wow, are the young "adults" stupid.

[Ilkka]

He was raised in a family of idiots, and he was just slightly below normal - a genius in their eyes - and treated as such for a long time.

Reminds me of that movie "Idiocrazy" the comedy in that was so smart or stupid but funny. Perhaps that little "genius" likes the movie called "Ass" whole 90 minutes of farting arse on a screen
I have Idiocrazy on DVD gotta watch it again soon probably since it was that good.

But on a more serious note I know a thing or two about idiots, there are some in these parts too.

I really have no desire to mingle in the general public. Wow, are the young "adults" stupid.

I have been avoiding socialization with people, luckly finnish people dont do small talk at all, most of us anyways that I know of, we like it that way. There are times when we socialise though in certain places. Some random people do try to engage in a conversation like this one time old guy as I was just passing by him said something about it being nice weather and such. I said just "Uhmmhmm" or something like that as walking away on my business, trying not to be too rude. Like this one phone sales man tried to sell me something worse than I already had (electricity from other company). So when I told him "no" like more than 5 times, he still wouldn't have it and after a while I just ended the call because he would just keep going around and around the same stuff about this and that and how easy it is to cancel with another phone call which I do not want to make within 14 days or so, if I wouldn't be satisfied with the new contract. Electricity isn't expensive but the transfer is (not sure if it is correct term for it). There is only one company that rules over this region with not competition so they decide how much they charge for their service.

I did say to the salesman that mine was already better, but he wanted to win even though I held "the winning cards" so to speak, so there was a bit of argument. And I was trying to be polite to the guy but enough is enough. The other time was when one tried to sell me some vitamin pills and at one point I just chuckled abit and said that it is good way to fool people and the woman was all defensive about it and I tried to be polite to her too. Didnt buy vitamin pills either, too expensive only good one would've been the other with metal supplements, but I didnt need it either, afterwards I checked them pills from their site and they didnt have any sugars, only necessary list of metal compounds, which makes it more expensive than the ones that I can buy from local store.

I do believe that phone salesmen do not really know about the product they are selling, they might think and act like they know but in truth they dont. I think they are led to believe in their product in order to sell it to others "fools" who think they need it, some might work for real but others are just placebo. I wonder what that unconscious act of deception does to their soul/mind, mind you some might even know it fully and still sell crap, because they are so good at it.

[Andrew]

I do believe that phone salesmen do not really know about the product they are selling, they might think and act like they know but in truth they dont. I think they are led to believe in their product in order to sell it to others "fools" who think they need it, some might work for real but others are just placebo. I wonder what that unconscious act of deception does to their soul/mind, mind you some might even know it fully and still sell crap, because they are so good at it.

Belief in the product boosts the confidence of the salesman, surely, but more often than not it's the potential money of the commission they believe in, and are thus inspirited by.

I have some "insider's information" on the subject from a particularly suave Slytherin relative of mine. He swears by a couple ideas.

1. It's not about what you say, but how you make them feel.
-Pretty much, down the road in time they are not going to remember what it was that you said to them that made you buy the thing they were selling. They will remember how you made them feel. An example he witnessed was from his regional manager at a furniture outlet he worked at where you had to make $10,000 worth of sales a week or you were fired. The regional manager saw this married couple walking in, and the guy told him he just wanted to buy this $500 endpiece, and the manager takes up a power stance, crossing his arms, and gets real with him, tells him flat out, "you don't love your wife." He goes off on him. "You don't care about your wife's happiness! You don't love your kids! You don't have any respect for yourself! " Goes on and on. The couple ends up buying $15,000 worth of furniture and leaves shaking his hand and thanking him. The manager goes over to my relative and the other employees and teaches them sales is about the transfer of emotion. In his way, he was able to convince them that if you come in here only buying a little piece of furniture, it's not going to make you happy. If you buy all the stuff you really want, it means you're not thinking about the lack: it means you're taking what you want. You become empowered. You take that action and overcome that fear of not having enough, of not having what you really want.
He made them feel grateful for being real with them. It wasn't so much about the furniture so much as it was about addressing the issues of love and priority. And that's why they thanked him afterward. It's not about what you say, but how you make them feel, even though he downright insulted them and made the sale in the process. Kind of clever, don't you think?

2. The Lord Giveth, the Lord Taketh Away.
-My relative was working at a Water filtration company. He had a contract written up for a couple for the financing and they sat down. The second the couple in front of him, for which the contract was written, showed the slightest hesitation in going through with the sale, he said, "I don't want you all to feel uncomfortable if you don't want it." And he tears up the contract in front of them. They gasped, and said NO. Ok, we'll do it. He wrote it up again and they went through. Happy that they did. The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.
This tactic, IMO, has some darker undertones as it preys on the unconscious fears of nearly every human being regarding abandonment. The average person isn't trained up well enough to see something within their grasp they want get taken away from them to instead firmly say No, walk away and patiently explore other options. So right when they see it get taken away, it triggers all those unconscious fears related to losing something they want, and they instinctively say Yes, and are thankful and proud they did not lose again.

So yes, salesmanship is placebo. The buyer and the item in question is a chemical reaction and the salesman is the catalyst.

What is a catalytic agent?
the causing or accelerating of a chemical change by the addition of a catalyst. 2. an action between two or more persons or forces, initiated by an agent that itself remains unaffected by the action: social catalyses occasioned by controversial writings.

[Ilkka]

It's not about what you say, but how you make them feel, even though he downright insulted them and made the sale in the process. Kind of clever, don't you think?

Yes it is, clever. I wouldn't be so easily swayed though since I pay attention some key details and would pick up insult and not forget it like so. Also if some salesman insulted me directly as such I would do the same to him/her. I dont take kindly to unfriendlyness, although I can take some insults as I grew up with a friend who was some times insulting pissed me off many times when we were little kids although cant remember much of that time as he once reminded me of that one time when I was mad at him about something, "I was looking for some firecrackers so that I could blow up his dick away" is what I was reminded of and we laughed at that thing. Apparently I didnt find any firecrackers we were about 7-10 years old at that time so well over 20 years has passed.
Insults from friend are totally different than from some unknown person, but still I have some resistance towards it.

It is sort of a psychological manipulation of people/sheeple, where I dont see kindness at all. Thats why I never can be a salesman myself, at least good one or master at that job.

[LoneBear]

(I've split this discussion off into a separate topic.)

1. It's not about what you say, but how you make them feel.
2. The Lord Giveth, the Lord Taketh Away.

Accurate, though #2 is just a subset of #1, since abandonment is just fear.

Personally, these tactics just piss me off. Last time it happened was when a nurse at the University of Utah MRI facility tried to force me to accept a gadolinium contrast agent (a highly toxic metal--see Chuck Norris' lawsuit where it poisoned and almost killed his wife). The MRI order and all my records on file disallow the use of contrast agents, so knowing a bit about the law, it is called "unconsented touching," which is assault.

Quick way to stop this kind of abuse is to "go public"... in my case, I said in a very loud and stern voice, "you try it, and I'll have you charged with assault!" so that the dozen people in the waiting room clearly heard it. Nurse disappeared very quickly and stayed gone. I then followed it up with a formal complaint to the MRI department manager, one Nicole Cottam, and never heard ONE WORD back. They buried that pretty quick. I may follow up with a letter to the head of Radiology and the local newspapers.

People only get away with this rude behavior because they GET AWAY with this rude behavior. Stand up for yourself and don't allow it. When someone pulls that, use some colorful expletives and DEMAND to see their manager, then give the manager a good tongue-lashing. Then go online and let the world know on review sites (3rd party, like Yelp). Next time you go into that store, that salesman will be gone--bad reviews are about the ONLY tactic that works against companies these days, large or small, because most people READ the 1-star reviews, to know how a company handles issues. I certainly do.

For those of us past the half-century mark, we've seen how the world population has been dumbed-down. Most college graduates these days could not pass a 12-grade final exam from 1930. And the funny part is the kids think they are brilliant, because they can regurgitate the research of others, without having a single, independent thought. And it is no accident; this has been talked about in conspiracy circles since the 1960s--"parroting," as it was called, gives the semblance of intelligence, but is only "knowledge." Intelligence also requires creativity and experience.

This ties in with some research I was doing on the chitahuri this morning (the Zulu name of the ANNUNAKI). Not easy to find info on, BTW, as search engines convert "chitahuri" to "chitauri," some comic book race of extraterrestrial shapeshifters... with enough in common with the Zulu legends to bury them (as the Zulu accounts are some of the "cleanest" we have regarding this race, as they went unnoticed until recently).

One of the features of the chitahuri are the lack of creativity... give them a blank sheet of paper and pencil and they'll just stare at it--just like most kids do. They can manipulate the work of others (parroting), but cannot come up with a new idea. Very interesting to see how that old agenda of the "gods" is being pushed into modern education.

Info on the chitahuri can be found on this old David Icke interview of shaman Credo Mutwa... very long (6.5 hours) but fascinating information.

[LoneBear]

I have noticed that in recent dealings with those people mentioned as the topic of this post, that "civilized society" is rapidly turning into the Kingdom of Id, a play on the old Parker-Hart comic strip, The Wizard of Id cross-referenced to an older Sci-Fi film, Forbidden Planet.

The "id" (pronounced "id," not I.D.) is a Freudian concept:

The id (Latin for "it", German: Es) is the disorganized part of the personality structure that contains a human's basic, instinctual drives. Id is the only component of personality that is present from birth. It is the source of our bodily needs, wants, desires, and impulses, particularly our sexual and aggressive drives. The id contains the libido, which is the primary source of instinctual force that is unresponsive to the demands of reality. The id acts according to the "pleasure principle"—the psychic force that motivates the tendency to seek immediate gratification of any impulse—defined as seeking to avoid pain or unpleasure (not "displeasure") aroused by increases in instinctual tension.

If you notice, this seems to be the primary drive of people these days--sex, drugs, alcohol, stimulants, violent games,... anything to stimulate those dopamine receptors.

Apparently, delayed adolescence has kept young folks from developing past the primary drives of the id--rather than growing and developing a self-IDentity, they chose to be an IDiot in a developing IDiocracy.

It is quite interesting when you start to think about this... with the onset of "smart" technology, the need for an ego has been transferred TO that technology. Since the id precedes the ego, and the ego is no longer needed, the id remains dominant, well into adulthood.

The ego is responsible for physical survival, so without one, what is perceived to be ego is what survives--which is why people, whose lives are in mortal danger, just stand there, with their smartphone on "record," making a video of their upcoming mutilation and death. Actually, it is a lot like the Cylons in Caprica, where upon their demise their consciousness is transferred into a new body... except here, it is the memory of the smartphone that is literally being uploaded to YouTube, and downloaded into a new phone to continue on.
.

[Ilkka]

The "id" (pronounced "id," not I.D.) is a Freudian concept:

The id (Latin for "it", German: Es) is the disorganized part of the personality structure that contains a human's basic, instinctual drives. Id is the only component of personality that is present from birth. It is the source of our bodily needs, wants, desires, and impulses, particularly our sexual and aggressive drives. The id contains the libido, which is the primary source of instinctual force that is unresponsive to the demands of reality. The id acts according to the "pleasure principle"—the psychic force that motivates the tendency to seek immediate gratification of any impulse—defined as seeking to avoid pain or unpleasure (not "displeasure") aroused by increases in instinctual tension.

If you notice, this seems to be the primary drive of people these days--sex, drugs, alcohol, stimulants, violent games,... anything to stimulate those dopamine receptors.

I lost my nerves again today while practising disc golf and wondered about why I do that thing if I just get angry everytime I go out and play that. I noticed once again that my temperament is something that I've always had from child. I tend to lose my nerves in almost every field of things, events, happenings, but mostly mishaps of my own doing. Thats the reason why I dont play games like "Counter-Strike: Global Offensive" and "World of Warcraft", I just dont want to get angry. So now I tend to stay away from those things that get "under my skin" like that. Although I could still go out to practise disc golf since it requires more physical movement than video games.

What you think should I try to be more calm while practising or give it up entirely? Knowing that I get pissed off quite rapidly and if irritation continues it escalades exponentially into oblivion or something like that. Maybe there is a way to train oneself, I have tried to do so in past when I was into New Age belief, but that did last only a year or so. I did do alot more meditation back then. Nowadays I cant get into that sort of meditative state, too much distracting thoughts and sometimes outer noises. But I gotta start try... DOING it again.

The ego is responsible for physical survival, so without one, what is perceived to be ego is what survives--which is why people, whose lives are in mortal danger, just stand there, with their smartphone on "record," making a video of their upcoming mutilation and death. Actually, it is a lot like the Cylons in Caprica, where upon their demise their consciousness is transferred into a new body... except here, it is the memory of the smartphone that is literally being uploaded to YouTube, and downloaded into a new phone to continue on.

Actually Cylons werent in Caprica yet, you are talking about Battlestar Galactica's Cylons, "skin jobs". In Caprica there was that global simulator where everyone went in to do things, where the first AI was built too.

I can see that when I get angry I get stupid. I remember this thing from "Shoot em up" movie that the villain said that he doesnt get angry because it lowers the IQ. I think it is for some time lowering but still. The movie was quite entertaining if you like that sort of killing bad guys movie, also the good guy was angry too alot in that movie, I know the feeling.

[animus]

I lost my nerves again today while practising disc golf and wondered about why I do that thing if I just get angry everytime I go out and play that. I noticed once again that my temperament is something that I've always had from child. I tend to lose my nerves in almost every field of things, events, happenings, but mostly mishaps of my own doing. Thats the reason why I dont play games like "Counter-Strike: Global Offensive" and "World of Warcraft", I just dont want to get angry. So now I tend to stay away from those things that get "under my skin" like that. Although I could still go out to practise disc golf since it requires more physical movement than video games.

What you think should I try to be more calm while practising or give it up entirely? Knowing that I get pissed off quite rapidly and if irritation continues it escalades exponentially into oblivion or something like that. Maybe there is a way to train oneself, I have tried to do so in past when I was into New Age belief, but that did last only a year or so. I did do alot more meditation back then. Nowadays I cant get into that sort of meditative state, too much distracting thoughts and sometimes outer noises. But I gotta start try... DOING it again.

It is not so much about training oneself but more about changing oneself. Don't train yourself to overlook the anger. Instead seek out its origin and then you can decide what to do about it.

Counter-Strike et al. are just means to let the anger out. I had my own phases when I was in school. It took a while until I learned to redirect the energy into other fields and turn it into productivity. As to disc golf, basketball, etc. While everybody else has a splendid time and enjoys the game, there is often that one person that constantly kills the mood by getting angry and depressive about every shot he/she makes. And they never seem to get any lucky shots. One has to wonder why...

Your posts in the last three years have been very telling that you are not happy about your current life's situation. You have been complaining about the circumstances around you numerous times. I am still waiting for some upbeat news in your posts but they just don't seem to come and I feel like our last year's pm conversation was in vain. That was nine months ago. If you don't mind me asking, is the situation from then still pretty much the same as it is now? If so, why? The answer to that might give you some insight to where your anger is coming from. You should re-read some of your posts because you are practically blurting out all the solutions between the lines. Here's a tip: try reading those posts, as if somebody else had written them and you were there to give advice. What would you tell the person?
(We may discuss this in private again if you like. I don't want to put you on the spot here.)

What you think should I try to be more calm while practising or give it up entirely?

Go out, take a long run and exhaust yourself. If your stamina is not up for a long run, work yourself up. (And don't forget to stretch your legs!) No music, just pure nature, or if in the city then better run very early or very late, so that you get your silence and your thoughts are free to wander. You will feel better afterwards and will have a clear(er) mind.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Funny but only true to a certain degree. Unless you are stupid too, they will only drag you down to their level of understanding. But you can still keep your knowledge and skills of argumentation. In fact, this will be necessary to help people understand and bring them up to your level of understanding.
An exception to this are people who do not want to understand. The quote may apply to them. And yes, I admit, there are a lot of them out there.

[LoneBear]

Actually Cylons werent in Caprica yet, you are talking about Battlestar Galactica's Cylons, "skin jobs". In Caprica there was that global simulator where everyone went in to do things, where the first AI was built too.

I was referring to the concept of "apotheosis" in the series.

Thats the reason why I dont play games like "Counter-Strike: Global Offensive" and "World of Warcraft", I just dont want to get angry.

Considering most games are designed to be an "exercise in frustration," why is that a surprise? Of course, most have "in app purchases" that allow you to BUY your way out of frustration.

There is a law of Nature that says, "use it or lose it." The primary function of the Ego complex is to keep your body alive. If your body is never actually threatened, there is no need for the ego to grow and mature, so it remains in the "id" state. Physical bangs, scrapes and broken bones of my generation (as kids) are now nothing more than a loss of "hit points" on a video screen display--never any physical threat, so the ego never has to "go to school" to learn how to defend your life. And when your generation is actually faced with physical threat--they do not know how to respond because of lack of real experience... wiggling your joystick isn't going to get you away from a mugger with a knife, and you won't have time to Google how to respond--you'll be busy laying on the ground, bleeding to death.

In youth now, the ego is bored and spends its time looking for distraction, rather than growing and learning how to cope with the world.

I think Calvin sums it up best... a "classic" from my generation:

Green Knees

(Green knees come from falling, slipping and sliding on a grass lawn, along with being covered in dirt and torn/missing clothes--what we called "having fun.")

Go get some green knees. Better yet, give up the video games and take a class in self-defense. In 3 months, you'll be a totally different person--and someone you'll like a whole lot better.

[Ilkka]

Actually Cylons werent in Caprica yet, you are talking about Battlestar Galactica's Cylons, "skin jobs". In Caprica there was that global simulator where everyone went in to do things, where the first AI was built too.

I was referring to the concept of "apotheosis" in the series.

Right you are there I thought it differently.

Go get some green knees. Better yet, give up the video games and take a class in self-defense. In 3 months, you'll be a totally different person--and someone you'll like a whole lot better.

When I was a teenager I did few weeks in Tae Kwon Do, dont know why I stopped going perhaps I just was bored about it, didnt like it. Now that I know it alot better I dont like it much, since there are better ones available.

I think that self defense is much about reaction time. Have had this problem with my knees lately they tend to ache everytime I step down hill or steps. Today I gotta book a time with a doctor about them to ask if Glucosamine helps and get a prescription for it (for lower costs).

It is not so much about training oneself but more about changing oneself. Don't train yourself to overlook the anger. Instead seek out its origin and then you can decide what to do about it.
As to disc golf, basketball, etc. While everybody else has a splendid time and enjoys the game, there is often that one person that constantly kills the mood by getting angry and depressive about every shot he/she makes. And they never seem to get any lucky shots. One has to wonder why...

That was me at mothers day when we were in this new place practising disc golf. The fact that it is competetive sport and I naturally need to be the winner of everything, just cant handle defeat like others who keep it inside themselves, as my friend told me that day. The difference is I dont laught other peoples throws if they hit in the first tree and goes further into bushes, like that same old friend still does sometimes. At the start of the course my throws were good and all that, but at some point it started to go down and then when that kept going, nerves were lost for a time.
My friend didnt really help when he said that no one cares about my ravings etc. in which I later thought about if they didnt care then why my ravings would affect their moods?

Not sure if this picture is good for the topic, but I think it relates.

[LoneBear]

When I was a teenager I did few weeks in Tae Kwon Do, dont know why I stopped going perhaps I just was bored about it, didnt like it. Now that I know it alot better I dont like it much, since there are better ones available.

You may want to pick something culturally relevant, that has both a physical and mental component.
Don't know what you look like so cannot make a recommendation based on body type, but if you are typical northern European (as I am), you need to use your muscles on a regular basis because you are genetically disposed to battling dragons and plundering cities. If you are not doing this, then your bioenergy gets knotted up and causes all sorts of problems--like knees and elbows. (Probably not the joint, but the tendons on the smaller, control muscles.) I took a look at your profile, and you are at the age where you should be in peak, physical condition. Need to fix that NOW, or you'll pay for it as you get older--not fun!

Ever consider things like fencing, boxing or hand-to-hand combat?

Not sure if this picture is good for the topic, but I think it relates.

Good picture... something I can identify with. Reminded me from a scene in The Thin Blue Line, when they were discussing what Biggles and Ginger, or Holmes and Watson would get up to...

[Ilkka]

You may want to pick something culturally relevant, that has both a physical and mental component.
Don't know what you look like so cannot make a recommendation based on body type, but if you are typical northern European (as I am), you need to use your muscles on a regular basis because you are genetically disposed to battling dragons and plundering cities. If you are not doing this, then your bioenergy gets knotted up and causes all sorts of problems--like knees and elbows. (Probably not the joint, but the tendons on the smaller, control muscles.) I took a look at your profile, and you are at the age where you should be in peak, physical condition. Need to fix that NOW, or you'll pay for it as you get older--not fun!

I am quite typical northern European type although perhaps not as tall, more of a slim built (169 cm about 5'7") and currently weigh about 69 kg, so still in the good weight zone. Although atleast 4 kg is body fat, since I've weighed 65 kg few years ago. Havent been building muscles much I tend to lose interest quite quickly or just forget to do the daily routine after a month or so.
What about shoulder and neck muscles are they "control muscles" what you were referring to? I have had problems with them in the past but have been diminished over the course of few months when I did daily exercsises of them, nothing much only once per day that took about 1 minute.

And yea, I know that I need to get more exercise, because health is only going to degrade from this age on.

Ever consider things like fencing, boxing or hand-to-hand combat?

No I havent. Sword fights and boxing has too many rules for my liking. I might check out this "Streetwise" that contains Krav Maga, Jeet Kune Do and Kali. Atleast thats what they advertise and its local, only few kms away. I met the guy who runs it, in this unemployed course which is basically must go or you get less unemployment daily allowance than normal.

One thing I know about myself is that I dont like touching much (others touching me). I am quite introvert. But maybe I can work myself up to the thing that requires close contact. Who knows maybe it can help me with disc flying further if I can move arms much faster.

I remember when I was in the army and went to doctors over 200 kms away to get my knees checked and they said to me that I have this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondromalacia_patellae and it should go away when I get older and for awhile it did but now this summer I think it has returned with vengeance thats why I gotta wake up early tomorrow to book appointment to doctor and ask him about it probably even need to get an MRI, which I dont particularly remember from over 10 years ago. I first had the thing with my knees getting achy when riding bike at a teenager of about 15, and had to stop riding bike, because the pain would be so bad at times. Skip over to now and I have started to get more and more achy knees just from walking, especially over the disc golf course terrain is going up and down.

[LoneBear]

What about shoulder and neck muscles are they "control muscles" what you were referring to? I have had problems with them in the past but have been diminished over the course of few months when I did daily exercsises of them, nothing much only once per day that took about 1 minute.

The control muscles are the smaller ones that control orientation (all joints).

I am doing "functional training" with physical therapy, which takes about 40 minutes, 3x a week with a 20 minute warmup. Some weights, but mostly big, rubber bands and straps that use your own body weight for resistance. No machines involved, so all the smaller muscles are worked to keep your balance. I have been at it for 4 months now and it is amazing how stable my body has become, and how quick my reflexes are.

Only noticed the reflex thing the other day, catching some fragile stuff that I accidentally knocked off the countertop. I was surprised my arms moved so fast and accurately to make the catch. Thought about it later and it made sense... larger muscles, more nerves to control them, so faster speed and accuracy.

No I havent. Sword fights and boxing has too many rules for my liking.

With your body type, you would probably "kick butt" with a rapier (a 16/17th century sword).

You should seek out more complex systems... it improves the mind, as well as the body.

I remember when I was in the army and went to doctors over 200 kms away to get my knees checked and they said to me that I have this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondromalacia_patellae and it should go away when I get older and for awhile it did but now this summer I think it has returned with vengeance thats why I gotta wake up early tomorrow to book appointment to doctor and ask him about it probably even need to get an MRI, which I dont particularly remember from over 10 years ago. I first had the thing with my knees getting achy when riding bike at a teenager of about 15, and had to stop riding bike, because the pain would be so bad at times. Skip over to now and I have started to get more and more achy knees just from walking, especially over the disc golf course terrain is going up and down.

Evaluate the MRI data for yourself... one of the things I learned is that doctors no longer know how to diagnose anything--they just look to remove symptoms with drugs and surgery.