Goethe on Color

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LoneBear
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Goethe on Color

Post by LoneBear » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:53 am

I ran across a very interesting video on colors, comparing and contrasting Goethe's perspective to Newton's. Had quite a bit of information that I never learned in school!



Also got me thinking... we treat color in Newton's sense, as a consecutive series of frequencies. Music does the same thing with notes. Is there the equivalent of a "magenta" in the green, Newtonian musical scale?
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Re: Goethe on Color

Post by joeyv23 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:48 am

That was superlatively interesting! Exploring the thoughts posed by your question about magenta, I started looking around a bit online to find some info to correlate and give my mind something to work with, and I ended up printing out and comparing these two color wheels side-by-side. I had to rotate Newton's wheel 90 degrees to get green to match up at the base, and without adjusting for the missing colors, we find that magenta should go to the location of the frequency associated with the "D" note.
goetheandnewton.jpg
With respect to Newton's wheel,
Michael Betancourt, [url=http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/color-organs/414460/]'Making Music with Color'[/url] wrote:When Castel first proposed his “ocular harpsichord” 75 years later, he credited Kircher’s discussion of sound and light as his inspiration. Castel also credited a second source: Isaac Newton’s 1705 treatise Opticks, in which Newton used his color wheel to draw an analogy between musical ratios and the visible spectrum. Although Newton didn’t explicitly connect musical notes to colors—the eight notes A through G at the edge of the circle indicate the transition points between colors, not the color value for specific notes—Castel built upon on Newton’s comparison to develop the idea of performing colored light as music. He used Newton’s science, in other words, in an attempt to prove Kircher’s belief in a divine link between light and sound.
Considering Newton's ignorance of the colors that Goethe found (pale yellow, cyan, magenta), the associations between the color frequencies and corresponding tonal frequencies would have to be adjusted for and the text quoted in the article cited above stands as validation for that, since Newton wasn't explicitly connecting musical notes to colors. With that said, out of curiosity I pulled up this piano to give myself some form of reference after being queued to the piano by the header image in the article above. I find it quite fascinating that the standard piano that we all are so familiar with starts at "A" and the low end, which makes logical sense in a linear framework.. starting at the beginning, but then there's something interesting about the upper end of the spectrum as associated to the piano that correlates to Newton's wheel. With green as a base, (the low "A"), opposite to it we should find a "D". Wouldn't you know it, the last note on the keyboard isn't a "G" denoting finality, but rather a "C". So the next note that would be there if the keyboard continued past 72 notes would be "D", in opposition to green/"A" as a base. I accept that this could just be one of those things where the correlation isn't what the mind seems to want to make of it, but when the association struck me (pun intended), I felt it worthy of sharing.

I also found this table interesting since it featured 'invisible violet' and 'invisible red' which my mind wants to consider where magenta would be located, and I find it extremely interesting in regards to the note that corresponds to invisible red, considering my post about a recent dream experience, having heard a high pitched "F" tone after having moved towards the unit boundary.
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Re: Goethe on Color

Post by mongo » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:42 am

What happens if A is 432hz?

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Re: Goethe on Color

Post by LoneBear » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:20 pm

Something I noticed many years ago, was that the EM spectrum (Newton version) came in chunks of 256 natural units of space (2^8), and that the colors of the rainbow hit very nearly on integer multiples of the unit of space, as wavelengths, between 8 and 15 natural units (1 octave, 16 starts iR). This chart is available on the RS2 site:
RS-visible-spectrum.gif
RS2 Visible Spectrum
Couple of other things I noticed between light and music:

Light is continuous in the time of the reference system (on), whereas music is discontinuous in the time of the reference system (notes). For example, during a concert, we hear a bunch of different frequency notes, whereas the lights over the musicians are constantly on at the same frequency.

Also, light is discontinuous in the space of the reference system--made of bundles of photons, whereas music is continuous--a song filling a room.

This indicates that light is a time region (material) phenomenon, whereas music is more "space region" (cosmic). The body is made of atoms displaced in the time region; the soul's atomic structure is in the space region. Therefore, light affects the body and music affects the soul. (Using visible light; the inverse may apply to the X-ray/gamma ray side.)
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Colors are cube roots

Post by LoneBear » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:09 pm

I was comparing the musical wheel Joey posted to the color wheel, and started noticing some similarities when viewed in a polar form (not the linear, wavelength form):

Using the HLS (Hue, Lightness, Saturation) color wheel:

Hue (color) = Pitch (tone).
Lightness (how much grey) = Loudness.
Saturation (how deep color is) = Timbre.

I also read some articles that the pitch between notes is multiplicative, by the 12th root of 2. The next semitone in an ascending sequence can be found by multiplying the pitch by 2^(1/12), giving a total of 12 semitones in an octave (the "2" being the doubling of frequency).

If you apply that to light, it has two pairs of cube roots, +1^(1/3) and -1^(1/3). Cube roots, being 1/4th of a 12th root, line up perfectly with the musical notes. I tried to do this, but ran into a problem because light is a step measure--the interval between colors is the same, being integer multiples of a natural unit of space. Music, however, is a growth spiral, where the interval between notes increases as you go up the scale. We normally encounter growth measure as an influence from the cosmic sector, where angular velocity tries to get expressed linearly. Again, it indicates music is more "cosmic" and light is "material."
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Re: Goethe on Color

Post by Lozion » Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:04 pm

Interesting to note that the tone I keep hearing in my left ear (which In my understanding is a tell tale sign of someone actively thinking about me-basic form of telepathy?) is around 6khz. I wonder if this could correlate to magenta and Joey's F note: 705hz to the 8th harmonic is 5640hz..
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Re: Goethe on Color

Post by LoneBear » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:26 pm

I've done some further research as the structure of light being a dual quaternion (see original post: http://forum.rs2theory.org/node/407), and now have a model that explains Newton's misconceptions and incorporates all the information put forth by Goethe. I have Gopi a quick overview this afternoon, so he is contemplating the idea now.

Light, the photon, isn't what science tells us it is. What I found was that it is a bit more complex than a vibration--the vibration is the "shadow on the wall" of what looks like a double-bubble (or as Gopi calls it, a Cassini oval), like a 3D form of an infinity symbol. It seems Larry Spring and his magnespheres was very close to the structure, though he did not delve into the rotational systems that produce the shadow. I used the work of Eric Dollard from 1985 to complete the model.

Couple of features that you won't find in conventional physics... magenta has a wavelength the same as green, but of the opposite phase, there are black and white photons (as well as gray ones), and photons also have an intrinsic brightness. Gray photons are the "center" of the system; split it on the brightness axis to get white or black intensities. Split it on one of the i, j or k rotations and you get red, green or blue components. Split it on the -i, -j or -k rotations and you get yellow, magenta or cyan components. The shadow of the rotations is the color wheel, containing all the "breakdown" possibilities.

It seems that frequency and wavelength occur when color shows up, in other words a "gray sphere" becomes lumpy--the displacement of the lumps from the gray sphere (a length) determines the wavelength and frequency.

We use Newton's perspective for measuring frequency and wavelength, so it is based on white/R/G/B (ignoring magenta), so the gray-scale photons, having no lumps, also have no frequency or wavelength, so "technically" they don't exist in Newton's system.

Got more research to do on it, particularly the math parts, and will write it up as soon as I find a way to draw diagrams of what I am trying to explain!
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Re: Goethe on Color

Post by janto » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:40 pm

Couple of features that you won't find in conventional physics... magenta has a wavelength the same as green, but of the opposite phase, there are black and white photons (as well as gray ones), and photons also have an intrinsic brightness. Gray photons are the "center" of the system; split it on the brightness axis to get white or black intensities. Split it on one of the i, j or k rotations and you get red, green or blue components. Split it on the -i, -j or -k rotations and you get yellow, magenta or cyan components. The shadow of the rotations is the color wheel, containing all the "breakdown" possibilities.
The above statement was confusing, in trying to understand how the green and magenta component could share the same frequency, when the EM Spectrum chart shows a very different color interpretation. So I applied a color correction (inversion) to the EM Spectrum chart, in order to make better sense of how frequencies of RGB color might appear from the viewpoint of time.
RS-visible-spectrum_hue-invert.png
Where have I seen colors of space interpreted from the perspective of time before?
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Re: Colors are cube roots

Post by dave432 » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:38 pm

LoneBear wrote:
Hue (color) = Pitch (tone).
Lightness (how much grey) = Loudness.
Saturation (how deep color is) = Timbre.
Thanks a lot for the analogizes you make between light and sound. They are helpful -- so light and sound could be reciprocal aspects of one thing?
LoneBear wrote:
I also read some articles that the pitch between notes is multiplicative, by the 12th root of 2. The next semitone in an ascending sequence can be found by multiplying the pitch by 2^(1/12), giving a total of 12 semitones in an octave (the "2" being the doubling of frequency).
The subject of tuning is a favorite of mine as previous posts show. Please keep in mind that the 12th root of 2 system is known as equal temperamant (ET), the standard of tuning adopted throughout most of the world, but standards can also imply politics and agendas. The music we all hear and are used to is ET but these are not the natural relationships between notes that Pythagoras worked with. I tend to believe he was using the same system of ratios from the Sumerian tablets.

As a quick example, in ET, using the A=440 Hz standard we have today, our E-note just above that A440 is 659.24 Hz. If someone asked Pythagoras what the E-note above that A-note should be he would have said 660 Hz (440 times a ratio of 3:2), which is Nature's E-note if starting from 440 Hz. So the E we hear in ET is a little flat (lower in frequency) from Nature's E.

The note that defines a major chord is the major third interval. In ET, the major third of an A-chord is C sharp. ET gives us 554.36 Hz but Nature says a major third should be a 5:4 ratio, where the higher of two pitches played together cycles 5 times and the lower 4 times. Pythagoras would give us 550 Hz for the C sharp. This means that Nature wants our major thirds to be a little flatter (lower frequency and more relaxed) than the ET major thirds we are accustomed to. So, I agree with those who say the music we hear everyday is causing some strain on the ear (soul) because our major thirds are too sharp. On the other side of it, ET has allowed instruments to be built that can play in all keys.

Makes me wonder if there is a ratio system that would apply to color as well as tones.

Have you ever looked at the cycle of 5ths musical chart? http://www.ehsboosters.org/wp-content/u ... lef-v2.pdf If you move to the opposite side of the circle for any note, you get something called the tritone interval. Wonder if this could be analogous to a complimentary color being on the opposite side of a color wheel. I want to spend more time thinking about that.
LoneBear wrote: Again, it indicates music is more "cosmic" and light is "material."
This kind of changes the idea of sound healing for the body. Perhaps a combined effort of light and sound would be a holistic approach to re-tuning the life unit. I know how to produce sound acoustically, without electrical interference (and I like electric guitars! just not for this purpose), but is there a way to produce colors of light without electronics? You can paint them certainly and a person could benefit that way (like different colored walls). Perhaps sunlight through filters...

Your insight about light affecting the body and sound the soul has been a great help toward my interest in how we are affected by these things. I still need more help seeing your conclusion from the RS2 perspective, but I keep trying.
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Re: Colors are cube roots

Post by LoneBear » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:01 pm

dave432 wrote:so light and sound could be reciprocal aspects of one thing?
I suspect conjugates, which is like a reciprocal but the power relations do not invert.

For example, s/t^2 is material acceleration. The reciprocal is t^2/s, which is NOT cosmic acceleration, that is t/s^2. s/t^2 and t/s^2 are conjugates of each other. The aspects invert, but the dimensionality remains in place.
dave432 wrote:Makes me wonder if there is a ratio system that would apply to color as well as tones.
I suspect that it does. Your explanation of ET is quite helpful, particularly that it reveals that music has been converted into a computer algorithm for simplicity, and is no longer a natural ratio. So now we have artificial music to go with artificial reality.
dave432 wrote:Have you ever looked at the cycle of 5ths musical chart? http://www.ehsboosters.org/wp-content/u ... lef-v2.pdf If you move to the opposite side of the circle for any note, you get something called the tritone interval. Wonder if this could be analogous to a complimentary color being on the opposite side of a color wheel. I want to spend more time thinking about that.
That is an interesting correlation, given that the tritone is the devil's interval--much like magenta is the devil's color in the spectrum. Can't exist as a frequency--but it does. Also interesting that magenta, as purple, is the #1 choice of religious leaders.
dave432 wrote:This kind of changes the idea of sound healing for the body. Perhaps a combined effort of light and sound would be a holistic approach to re-tuning the life unit. I know how to produce sound acoustically, without electrical interference (and I like electric guitars! just not for this purpose), but is there a way to produce colors of light without electronics? You can paint them certainly and a person could benefit that way (like different colored walls). Perhaps sunlight through filters...
This is brilliant--you need to pursue this. Perhaps Billy can help here, as he is a singer and healer, so may be aware of many correlations that I haven't seen.

But, if it does work as light/material and sound/cosmic, then you will probably need to invert the ratios to use them together. A musical interval of 3:2 would have to couple to a light interval of 2:3, so the interaction between them becomes unity, 3/2 x 2/3 = 1/1. Unity is harmony.
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Re: Goethe on Color

Post by Lozion » Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:03 pm

Also interesting that magenta, as purple, is the #1 choice of religious leaders.
A vestige of the Roman era when the holders of the Rex Sacrorum title (priests) wore purple toga's tinted from the Levantine Murex snail dye extract. It would be interesting to see if the use of purple predate the Phoenicians, themselves descendants from the Assyrian and Neo Babylonian empires, hence a potential influence from our age old bunch, the Annuna's..
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Re: Colors are cube roots

Post by DSKlausler » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:17 am

LoneBear wrote:This is brilliant--you need to pursue this. Perhaps Billy can help here, as he is a singer and healer, so may be aware of many correlations that I haven't seen.

But, if it does work as light/material and sound/cosmic, then you will probably need to invert the ratios to use them together. A musical interval of 3:2 would have to couple to a light interval of 2:3, so the interaction between them becomes unity, 3/2 x 2/3 = 1/1. Unity is harmony.
Didn't Asimov's "The Mule" use sound and light to great effect?
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Re: Colors are cube roots

Post by dave432 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:15 pm

LoneBear wrote:
So now we have artificial music to go with artificial reality.
In ET, there is a scale factor to multiply any frequency by to get the next half step higher in pitch in the 12-tone per octave system. That number is 1.05946... So, take your A440-note and multiply it by 1.05946 to get the next note up -- A sharp (aka B flat).
LoneBear wrote:
But, if it does work as light/material and sound/cosmic, then you will probably need to invert the ratios to use them together. A musical interval of 3:2 would have to couple to a light interval of 2:3, so the interaction between them becomes unity, 3/2 x 2/3 = 1/1. Unity is harmony.
When working with musical ratios, a 3:2 fifth going up in pitch from some starting frequency means you multiply by 1.5 (3:2 expressed as a decimal). To go down a fifth in pitch, divide by 3:2, or multiply by the inverse of 2:3. Pretty neat. So far over the years I have bits and pieces here there and everywhere on this topic, then I reach a kind of stopping point where I need to go on to something else for a while.This is the way learning the RS2 is progressing for me as well. There are spurts of intensity and then there are quiet periods in between. Integration I suppose. But I do have to get away from it for a while at times.
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