Courting Rapport

Discussion of the basic concepts and philosophy behind the idea of a Sanctuary; a place where those exhibiting traits of the next generation of man can meet and learn, without prejudice or bias.
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LoneBear
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Courting Rapport

Post by LoneBear » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:53 am

Arcelius wrote:When a community gathers together (whether online or in person though being in person certainly changes the dynamic), there is an egregore or thoughtform (potentially an SMC) that is created based on the individuals involved. There is often a difference in the egregore between the inner and outer courts of a occult society and the nature of the egregore reflects that. Like does tend to attract like in certain realms such as that of the spirit (anima/animus) rather than having opposites attract. The instruction given in the outer reflects that which is required to change in order to meet the minimum requirements for the inner court. Regardless of the skill acquired in the outer court, if rapport is not attained with the egregore of the inner court, then you will not be admitted and the reasons will be obvious to those in the inner court though not as much so to the individual. Many words to describe something that has happened and will happen with the Sanctuary Project (inner court) and the Antiquatis site (outer court). It also happens regularly in real life around things like sports teams and mascots (inner court equivalent would be the coaches, owners, and players) or corporations including brands (inner court equivalent is the C-level execs and large shareholders).
This concept of inner/outer courts and the general striation of the system, has been on my mind for years. People have asked what the difference is between the structure of the Sanctuary project and all the other religious and metaphysical groups, since they are all built upon the "inner court" principle.

Many years ago, my thought was to eliminate any barriers to participation and, like Pythagoreas, just make the "path" that led to the project a difficult one to follow, so only the determined would walk it. This, however, proved to be impractical because our current system of education (or lack, thereof) only provides dogma, teaching people NOT to think for themselves. Thinking for yourself is a requirement of walking your own path. However, People cannot walk a path, if they never look for an entrance.

The idea was proposed of a more structured system like grade levels in school, because that was the system people were familiar with, One would advance through the system as they became more knowledgeable and self-reliant, becoming self-starters rather than slaves. There were several levels to the system, based on Latin names, which are still used as "Ranks" on this forum (the number of taijitu symbols associated with your username). But the situation arose of making judgement decisions--how do you tell a person's "grade," particularly if they happen to surpass your own?

In the last Institute design, done primarily by Gopi and myself, we just used the 2-tier approach similar to the vMeme structure. Antiquatis Institute was designed to be the Tier 1 "public" interface, as a scientific and religious corporation that people (and governments) could understand and interact with. The Monastery was isolated out as the Tier 2 community. Study into Spiral Dynamics is fairly extensive, and provided the tools necessary to easily see the clear distinction between the Tiers, since many people span 2 or more of the vMemes, themselves (seems to be a consequence of information exposure on the Internet; people were very single-Tier fixed when Graves designed the system). The Tier 1/Tier 2 distinction is fairly straightforward, basically separating the concepts of rivalry (Tier 1) and rapport (Tier 2).

If you want to know which Tier you are in, examine how you respond to a radical, new idea... what is the first thing in your mind?
  • Why this cannot be (Tier 1, closed, locked in a single system of values)
  • How this could be possible (Tier 2, open, seeing a system of expanding values)
In the Reciprocal System, the Tiers are the difference between the "life unit" (Tier 1) and the "ethical control unit" (Tier 2).

So the project does have its inner and outer courts, but the outer court is for those at the transition between the Tiers. Those firmly fixed in the Tier 1 valuing will not have any interest in this system, as the vMeme is already answering all the questions concerning life, the Universe and everything--you stay in the vMeme until it stops answering those questions.

Those on the transition will bounce back and forth between the two Tiers, sometimes for years. Eventually, they work things out and come to a decision to either stay in Tier 1, with all its material benefits, or take on Tier 2 values as the primary motivation of their live--and those are the people that the Monastery exists for. That is the motto that Gopi came up with on the main site, "To Be What No Man has Been, Before." A place to see what we, as humans, can accomplish outside of the systems of competition and rivalry.
Arcelius wrote:Speaking of origins, the genies of myth which grant you 3 wishes that never work out for you are common stories and even jokes. The reason they never work out is generally because of the incorrect and incomplete specification of what is truly desired. When bringing something into form such as Antiquatis, L/L Research, Sanctuary, etc., the better and more clear the specification of what exactly is to be created and how it will work once created is quite critical to success.
Three wishes I grant you,
Great wishes or small,
But make a fourth wish,
And you lose them all!


This was the problem with the ancient Oracles... you always got a true answer to your question--but few ever asked their question properly, so the answer tended to be meaningless.

Perhaps it is time to create a "functional specification" for the project. There's a good deal of info on here, already, so perhaps I'll start formalizing it for comment to get something that is understandable and makes the intent clear. My basic thoughts are already on the Monastery site.
Arcelius wrote:I see that the Cosmic sector is the opportunity to explore the differences between rivalry and rapport since both are possible there.
The cosmic sector, being the reciprocal of the material, shares the same properties and behavior, working to the same principles of rivalry. But because the valuing is "inside-out" from the spatial perspective, it is often viewed as something else. On the cosmic side, you are "soulistic" rather than "materialistic," where emotional needs and desires run analogous to physical needs and desires.

Rapport does not enter the picture until both the material and cosmic aspects of life are brought into harmony, to act as a foundation to cross the unit boundary to the ethical sector.
Arcelius wrote:Those who choose to stay are still learning valuable things though from a certain perspective, they are not progressing as quickly. As a metaphor, in school (at least in the 'olden days'), you had to learn a minimum amount of material in order to progress to the next grade. Once satisfied that this material had been learned, the teacher will allow you to go forward. However, just because the minimum requirements have been met, doesn't mean that all of the material presented has been thoroughly understood and mastered (including things that the teacher doesn't touch upon).
That's the challenge here, because we are venturing into territory "where no man has gone before," which means that you really cannot have "teachers," but only fellow explorers that can share the maps of the travels they have made, into this other realm. Once there are enough explorers to map out this unexplored country in detail, then you can have teachers to explain the highlights.
Arcelius wrote:Not only the comprehension of the answers but also the ability to use the answers to accomplish consciousness work. This is the real personal proof for such things. Note that in this respect, scientific proof caters to the lowest common denominator in that anything true must be reproducible by anyone at any time (simplified). This explicitly excludes a lot of human experience particularly that which happens inside of consciousness. The only Savior that may come with the answers you don't need to understand will be like the shepherd which selects which of his flock will be "sacrificed" to the butcher in order to pay her/his bills.
Scientific proof is based on fixed, spatial relationships. Place these two charges at this distance and calculate the force between them.

Magical proof is based on fixed, temporal relationships. The same resonant patterns (music, chants, etc) will produce the same feelings.

But space and time do not maintain a fixed relation to each other--after all, it is a universe of motion. So when one tries to use spatial, scientific proof to validate the effects of magic--the effect that time has upon space--it is not reproducible, unless you know how time is changing in relation to space. This is why magical events tend to be associated with specific phenomena, such as the 'tween times (crossing), planetary alignments, etc. They are spatial indicators of certain, stable relationships between 3D space and 3D time.

This is why the physical location of the Monastery is important--it needs to be at a nexus, where the relations between space and time are consistent. You cannot get that in the "electromagnetic nightmare" of high-tech civilizations. Sacred spaces, those places where the material/cosmic relationship is consistent or repeatable, are usually devoid of technology.

The same holds true for the explorers of the Monastery, as each person is also a "place" that joins this realm and the other.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by joeyv23 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:22 am

LoneBear wrote:Rapport does not enter the picture until both the material and cosmic aspects of life are brought into harmony, to act as a foundation to cross the unit boundary to the ethical sector.
I've been thinking for a few days on how to go about stating what I'm about post in the forum, and with upon reading this statement, I feel that now is the the best moment for it.

I've realized that while I may no longer find solace in the answers that are provided in Tier 1 vMemes, I still tend to think and act out of rivalry, more often than rapport. I had, earlier in the year, the desire and full intention to clean my body of toxins and stop using chemicals. I told LoneBear just this in a PM and even after deciding for myself that this is what I wanted to do, found myself falling back hard on my word. I didn't stop smoking cigarettes. I continued using different substances to alter my consciousness. I have been and continue to act upon my physical body out of rivalry, rather than rapport. This realization hit when I read Editorhpa, and The-Man-That-Did-It was given a lesson on how much energy is used by our simple act of breathing. Surely I've been misusing my qi, to maintain my health, as I detriment the jing energy of my body by subjecting it to these different chemicals, and it's beginning to come back at me. I've been feeling different pains, have been having dreams showing me clearly the chakra blockages and reasons for it, but still have continued to ignore my own self advisement, as well as that which has been given here to me, freely, by members of this group.

So it is, as to what LB said in the quote above, I can personally attest to. I'm working on that balance between the masculine and feminine, yang and yin, material and cosmic sectors, but rivalry is still a part of my programming. I want to move beyond this into the ethical sector where the method for interaction is rapport. I re-read the --daniel papers, and upon review of the path that is laid out for ascension, as extrapolate using RS mechanics, I feel that I may be a person who's made it beyond the mortal realms, but due to continued interaction with it, find myself reincarnated. I don't feel bad about this, obviously I had lessons yet to learn, and will continue on in this life until such a time that those lessons have been grasped, and I have left behind that which I feel was necessary to be left behind. As it is now, the goal is to work towards getting myself into alignment with my cosmic aspects by ceasing the use of chemicals that are not beneficial to my health and well being, that I might be able to more effectively aid in the evolution of consciousness.

I've realized that intention alone does not an action create. There is a drive that is required to follow through on intention that I've thus far not utilized as much as I would preferred to have. And so it is, I'll continue to work on myself, knowing what I'm capable of, and reminding myself more and more often to think and act in a manner that is based in rapport, rather than rivalry. I know rivalry will continue to pervade my thoughts and actions for some time and that's ok, I see no benefit from railing against this fact. I will only push myself to do the work, to bring myself into further alignment, that I may continue on this path beyond the physical realms of space and time.
"Living is not necessary, but navigation is." --Pompey
"Navigation is necessary in order to live." --Me

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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by LoneBear » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:10 pm

joeyv23 wrote:I've been thinking for a few days on how to go about stating what I'm about post in the forum, and with upon reading this statement, I feel that now is the the best moment for it.
Your situation is common, based on the PMs I've gotten from others in similar situations of "old habits die hard." This is where a physical community could have a significant influence, because you would be out of the patterned behavior area for a bit, allowing new patterns to develop.

The neocortex pattern matches. It is the basis for all our actions. The more often a pattern is used, the stronger its influence is. That's why they repeat the same commercials, over and over and over. Your addictions are more "burned in patterns" than any physical dependency. What you need to do is get into a situation where the old patterns won't "match" and stop being activated. If you keep doing old habits, then the same triggers are present.

I got stuck like this back in 1991 in my mid-30s, which is when men go through their "spiritual transition" (by then, kids have left home, jobs are usually stable, and thoughts can go elsewhere). Got into that "going nowhere fast" modality, and Fr. Tim recommended I just take a vacation to somewhere I've never been before, so I cannot keep triggering the same patterns. And that's how i ended up roaming around the Yucatan for a couple of weeks. And when I came back, my energy was so different, that the friend meeting me at the airport didn't even recognize me and walked right past!

May be something you want to consider as well. Sometimes you need "now for something completely different," to quote Monty Python.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by joeyv23 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:55 pm

LoneBear wrote:Your situation is common, based on the PMs I've gotten from others in similar situations of "old habits die hard." This is where a physical community could have a significant influence, because you would be out of the patterned behavior area for a bit, allowing new patterns to develop.

The neocortex pattern matches. It is the basis for all our actions. The more often a pattern is used, the stronger its influence is. That's why they repeat the same commercials, over and over and over. Your addictions are more "burned in patterns" than any physical dependency. What you need to do is get into a situation where the old patterns won't "match" and stop being activated. If you keep doing old habits, then the same triggers are present.
This is it exactly. I live and interact with smokers every day. I made it 3 weeks without smoking at first, and then eventually, in order to not be the odd man out as all of my roommates were going out to smoke, I caved and started up again. Since then I've moved home, and almost my whole family smokes. It's rough trying to quit when people are consistently asking if I want a cigarette.
LoneBear wrote:I got stuck like this back in 1991 in my mid-30s, which is when men go through their "spiritual transition" (by then, kids have left home, jobs are usually stable, and thoughts can go elsewhere). Got into that "going nowhere fast" modality, and Fr. Tim recommended I just take a vacation to somewhere I've never been before, so I cannot keep triggering the same patterns. And that's how i ended up roaming around the Yucatan for a couple of weeks. And when I came back, my energy was so different, that the friend meeting me at the airport didn't even recognize me and walked right past!

May be something you want to consider as well. Sometimes you need "now for something completely different," to quote Monty Python.
I JUST got this same recommendation only a few days ago from an online friend in Malaysia. He's starting a new life with his wife and kids in a somewhat remote setting, and has offered to give me shelter, that I might come and visit. He's convinced I should hold seminars and teach techniques such as Lucid Dreaming and Mental Projection, but I still can't see doing this, as I feel it's better to be given freely than at a monetary charge. He argues that it's simply energetic exchange. I don't think it's "wrong" to charge for this type of information, just redundant, since all I'm ever doing is talking about my personal experience in a way that often reminds others of their own personal truths. He's offered to give me a place to go for a few months, all I'd have to do is get a passport, visa, and the money to get there, and I could help him work on the homestead, and relax and commune with the family and their friends.

Even if I can't make it out to Malaysia, I am determined to take a trip soon somewhere here in the states to get away from these patterns for a while, and give myself time and space for an internal reboot of sorts.

I think you and Monty Python have it right. What I need now is something completely different.
"Living is not necessary, but navigation is." --Pompey
"Navigation is necessary in order to live." --Me

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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:17 pm

joeyv23 wrote:
This is it exactly. I live and interact with smokers every day. I made it 3 weeks without smoking at first, and then eventually, in order to not be the odd man out as all of my roommates were going out to smoke, I caved and started up again. Since then I've moved home, and almost my whole family smokes. It's rough trying to quit when people are consistently asking if I want a cigarette.
I know the 'mantra'. I have "struggled" with chemical addictions on and off throughout my adult life.
Mainly, they are used by ego to divert attention(and energy) away from making progress in many areas of life.
They can cause much dis-ease in your mind and body, some can even fracture the psyche.
Having to put your mind back together is a great way to keep you from evolving and growing.

It is good to 'get away' every now and then to help break the patterns.
Interactive Intelligence coordinates movement in harmony with its nature.

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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by DSKlausler » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:41 am

LoneBear wrote:I got stuck like this back in 1991 in my mid-30s, which is when men go through their "spiritual transition" (by then, kids have left home, jobs are usually stable, and thoughts can go elsewhere). Got into that "going nowhere fast" modality, and Fr. Tim recommended I just take a vacation to somewhere I've never been before, so I cannot keep triggering the same patterns.
Wow; we come from different worlds.

I was only just married in my 30s, and my children have not yet departed on their own paths; wife is in her own world (or I am). I must take care with what I reveal publicly - the overlords in suburbia are all-pervasive.

Jobs and education: I was all over the place, having received poor-to-none in guidance from my parents. I attended college on my own dime - as an adult. I had what I thought was a stable (but somewhat annoying) job but was suprisingly let go (probably for age and salary reasons)... although that job gave me the initial freedom to start to investigate the real world.

My family vacations (we are passed those now - having teens) were at most one week in length - and they were all of us... touring. Backpacking in the wild is my only true relief - and even then, I am not alone... but that is by choice.

Only in the last few years (I am now in my 50s) have I had something close to comfort, stability, AND time.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by deepfsh » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:44 am

joeyv23 wrote:I made it 3 weeks without smoking at first, and then eventually,
It's rough trying to quit when people are consistently asking if I want a cigarette.
Obzistian wrote:Mainly, they are used by ego to divert attention(and energy) away from making progress in many areas of life.
I have the same problem, only with sweets (= sugar). I found out I've been using them as a reward for accomplishing a goal or coming up with an idea/solution/intelligent connection, or as a means of calming down (/tricking?) my psyche when I encounter worrying information or I don't reach a goal / fulfill a duty, or obligation in due time.

I know I don't need them, and I've intended to slowly get rid of them (with the exception of occasionally consuming natural sugers in fruits). I'm exercising this by doing my best to meet the expectations I have about myself, fulfill my goals/duties/obligations, and face (not run away from) my trials.
"You talk the talk ... do you walk the walk?" Kubrick, Full Metal Jacket

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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:19 am

deepfsh wrote:
joeyv23 wrote:I made it 3 weeks without smoking at first, and then eventually,
It's rough trying to quit when people are consistently asking if I want a cigarette.
Obzistian wrote:Mainly, they are used by ego to divert attention(and energy) away from making progress in many areas of life.
I have the same problem, only with sweets (= sugar). I found out I've been using them as a reward for accomplishing a goal or coming up with an idea/solution/intelligent connection, or as a means of calming down (/tricking?) my psyche when I encounter worrying information or I don't reach a goal / fulfill a duty, or obligation in due time.

I know I don't need them, and I've intended to slowly get rid of them (with the exception of occasionally consuming natural sugers in fruits). I'm exercising this by doing my best to meet the expectations I have about myself, fulfill my goals/duties/obligations, and face (not run away from) my trials.

The path to the fruit bowl is paved with the wrappers of good confections.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Arcelius » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:39 pm

LoneBear wrote:In the last Institute design, done primarily by Gopi and myself, we just used the 2-tier approach similar to the vMeme structure. Antiquatis Institute was designed to be the Tier 1 "public" interface, as a scientific and religious corporation that people (and governments) could understand and interact with. The Monastery was isolated out as the Tier 2 community. Study into Spiral Dynamics is fairly extensive, and provided the tools necessary to easily see the clear distinction between the Tiers, since many people span 2 or more of the vMemes, themselves (seems to be a consequence of information exposure on the Internet; people were very single-Tier fixed when Graves designed the system). The Tier 1/Tier 2 distinction is fairly straightforward, basically separating the concepts of rivalry (Tier 1) and rapport (Tier 2).
Interesting. One thing that this may fail to capture about the inner/outer court concept is the underlying magical connection between those in the inner court. The outer court is (hopefully) made up of friends which may come and go. The inner court is family and the connections made there last beyond a lifetime. It is easy to tell when you are part of a family, who the other members are. It is only those outside of the family who have difficulties. It is not so much of who meets the requirements in many cases but rather whether you belong though there may still be some things you must do before being fully accepted in the current lifetime. It might be more like growing up and becoming an adult. The children are still family but they typically have little decision-making power in family-related business.

I could be wrong though it seems to me like you are trying to start something new and different. At some point, you may come across someone who is Tier 2 and yet, doesn't fit in that well with the Monastery. Or perhaps not. I think it may be possible but am much less sure that it would actually happen in practice.
Lonebear wrote:The cosmic sector, being the reciprocal of the material, shares the same properties and behavior, working to the same principles of rivalry. But because the valuing is "inside-out" from the spatial perspective, it is often viewed as something else. On the cosmic side, you are "soulistic" rather than "materialistic," where emotional needs and desires run analogous to physical needs and desires.

Rapport does not enter the picture until both the material and cosmic aspects of life are brought into harmony, to act as a foundation to cross the unit boundary to the ethical sector.
This harmonization takes place before crossing the unit boundary to the ethical sector, right? This implies that some amount of rapport must be possible in the cosmic and material sectors. Otherwise, I don't see how such a foundation could be built in order to transition to the ethical sector.
Lonebear wrote:That's the challenge here, because we are venturing into territory "where no man has gone before," which means that you really cannot have "teachers," but only fellow explorers that can share the maps of the travels they have made, into this other realm. Once there are enough explorers to map out this unexplored country in detail, then you can have teachers to explain the highlights.
This implies that the only possible teachers are also human. Just because no man has gone there before doesn't mean that no one has been there. At the very least, having a trusted (and trustworthy) guide can be extremely helpful even if they aren't human.
Lonebear wrote:But space and time do not maintain a fixed relation to each other--after all, it is a universe of motion. So when one tries to use spatial, scientific proof to validate the effects of magic--the effect that time has upon space--it is not reproducible, unless you know how time is changing in relation to space. This is why magical events tend to be associated with specific phenomena, such as the 'tween times (crossing), planetary alignments, etc. They are spatial indicators of certain, stable relationships between 3D space and 3D time.
Right. And when science doesn't acknowledge any temporal effects to anything, no one is even looking at or measuring that motion. This is a strong bias in Western societies (generally-speaking) which is very limiting despite the technological advances that are being made. Note that these advances are made because people comprehend the measurements that are being made and have the ability to use them. The same applies to magical proofs. However, you must have some awareness and ability like the scientific measurements (ability to use scientific instrumentation) in spatial relationships before you can do anything. And if you can't actually do anything magically and see the results (i.e. very under-developed rather than an inability in most people), then what is the point? Lots of magical concepts are debated by many people. However, if those people don't have direct, personal experience with the reality of those concepts, then what "magical technological advances" will they be able to make? What magical technological tools can they even use?

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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by neal » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:07 pm

Humans do not need technology to move and go in motion. Not ready, just work on that ethical baseline, and be strong. The personal history will not add up, not about the machinery. Of course, it is a War. Please do not create shortcuts, that is always increased suffering. Titans are placeholders, the original design for everything being OK with humans.

Inner and outer circles, just dynamic. Ride a whirlwind, not that there is much choice.

It is OK to be all over places, and times, just natural, before that was proclaimed a human thing.

Now, humans talk to humans. Hardly anything else getting squeezed in the process can do anything but watch.

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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by LoneBear » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:11 am

Arcelius wrote:Interesting. One thing that this may fail to capture about the inner/outer court concept is the underlying magical connection between those in the inner court. The outer court is (hopefully) made up of friends which may come and go. The inner court is family and the connections made there last beyond a lifetime. It is easy to tell when you are part of a family, who the other members are. It is only those outside of the family who have difficulties. It is not so much of who meets the requirements in many cases but rather whether you belong though there may still be some things you must do before being fully accepted in the current lifetime. It might be more like growing up and becoming an adult. The children are still family but they typically have little decision-making power in family-related business.
Personally, I am opposed to the idea of an inner court "family," because that's what we've already GOT with the governing family of the world. If you check, all the world "leaders" are the same family--their inner court. That goes with the reciprocal concept to materialism--soulism. In psychology, that's the "collective"--a cosmic sector concept (nonlocality), not an ethical one.

We are trained in the one-to-many relationship, where the "group" is larger than the individual, so joining a group gives you collective power. I saw a Babylon 5 episode the other day where Sheridan was talking about the how proud he felt the first time he put on his uniform--he became part of something larger. But at the unit boundary, things reverse--the ethical version would be that the collective group is smaller than the individual, a many-to-one relationship. This is also the idea behind the social memory complex (SMC), where the family/group/collective is more like the Internet is--a way to connect and communicate, not a way to empower.
Arcelius wrote:At some point, you may come across someone who is Tier 2 and yet, doesn't fit in that well with the Monastery. Or perhaps not. I think it may be possible but am much less sure that it would actually happen in practice.
There are Tier 2 people "out there" already and given the way synchronicity works, it is highly probably that they will find and visit the project. That is why I am trying to base the system on Tier 2 ethics--top down, not bottom-up. And it is challenging to do because we have so little experience thinking in terms of "ethical control units" (as Larson puts it), and massive amounts of programming for rivalry and slavery.

Unlike the New Age stuff on "higher whatevers," I am trying to derive the principles of the Sanctuary project as natural consequences. One of the properties of Nature is that the same structures have the same properties and behaviors. One atom of Helium behaves exactly as every other atom of Helium, that has the same configuration. This is also noticed in psychology with the concept of archetypes, a kind of "stereotypical behavior." Astrology works because of this similarity, as well. All those that have developed a degree of ethical consciousness in Tier 2 will most likely think and behave in a very similar fashion to each other.

Of course, it will take time to adjust, as it is doubtful that anyone will get it 100% on the first try. But that's part of the purpose of discovering what humanity can be.
Arcelius wrote:This harmonization takes place before crossing the unit boundary to the ethical sector, right? This implies that some amount of rapport must be possible in the cosmic and material sectors. Otherwise, I don't see how such a foundation could be built in order to transition to the ethical sector.
The integration (based on alchemical texts) would take place after the crossing of the boundary, creating the ethical motion. Anything before would still be considered a life unit relationship, since ethical units cannot exist as discrete units in either the material or cosmic sectors. That harmonic synchronization would be what "opens the door" to creating an ethical structure. You still have to step through to the other side. That would make rapport unique to the 3rd sector.
Arcelius wrote:This implies that the only possible teachers are also human. Just because no man has gone there before doesn't mean that no one has been there. At the very least, having a trusted (and trustworthy) guide can be extremely helpful even if they aren't human.
I would not eliminate that possibility of non-human teachers, though I would consider it unlikely. Our civilization cannot even tolerate the minor differences in humanity (physical or belief); non-human teachers would not survive long, before being grabbed by the military and imprisoned.

I actually discussed this possibility with the Nokk, several years ago. They didn't say "no," but there are many technical difficulties with things like getting a dwarf to teach metalworking to humans, or taking herbology from an elf. The reputation of humanity is not good, so it is probably best if we learn how to teach ourselves first, to show that we can be a good student.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Arcelius » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:05 pm

LoneBear wrote:Personally, I am opposed to the idea of an inner court "family," because that's what we've already GOT with the governing family of the world. If you check, all the world "leaders" are the same family--their inner court. That goes with the reciprocal concept to materialism--soulism. In psychology, that's the "collective"--a cosmic sector concept (nonlocality), not an ethical one.
Exactly. And this pattern is replicated by those (or most of those) who oppose the governing family magically. The governing family is mostly materialistic with their emphasis on genetics and blood-relationships. Other groups that work magically emphasize the other side (cosmic sector). Virtually all groups fall into one or the other. It sounds like you are aiming to create something that is not in the category. That is a bold undertaking. I think you can expect both sides to be against it even to the point of collaborating together (like the avatar on the Charmed series, I forget the season).
Lonebear wrote:We are trained in the one-to-many relationship, where the "group" is larger than the individual, so joining a group gives you collective power. I saw a Babylon 5 episode the other day where Sheridan was talking about the how proud he felt the first time he put on his uniform--he became part of something larger.
This is not imaginary though. Joining groups does provide collective power. And Sanctuary does imply forming some kind of group. I hope you won't be issuing uniforms when people arrive :lol: .
Lonebear wrote:But at the unit boundary, things reverse--the ethical version would be that the collective group is smaller than the individual, a many-to-one relationship. This is also the idea behind the social memory complex (SMC), where the family/group/collective is more like the Internet is--a way to connect and communicate, not a way to empower.
I think this is highlighting some discrepancies in my thinking. I will need to pursue this a bit more. So the cosmic and material sectors are reciprocals of each other and together they form a whole thing based on rivalry. Then the ethical sector is the reciprocal of this thing and is based on rapport rather than rivalry. Inside the ethical sector, is there an internal reciprocal relationship between a couple of rapport things? If there were, then this would start making a lot of sense to me. It just seems to me that there is something missing.
Lonebear wrote:The integration (based on alchemical texts) would take place after the crossing of the boundary, creating the ethical motion. Anything before would still be considered a life unit relationship, since ethical units cannot exist as discrete units in either the material or cosmic sectors. That harmonic synchronization would be what "opens the door" to creating an ethical structure. You still have to step through to the other side. That would make rapport unique to the 3rd sector.
I guess I was seeing the harmonic synchronization as part of rapport.
Lonebear wrote:I would not eliminate that possibility of non-human teachers, though I would consider it unlikely. Our civilization cannot even tolerate the minor differences in humanity (physical or belief); non-human teachers would not survive long, before being grabbed by the military and imprisoned.
I would expect that any non-human teachers that may (or may not) show up would not allow themselves to be grabbed by anyone. I also expect that they wouldn't show up for the masses of humanity or if they did, it would be to explicitly take over. I was thinking more along the lines of a successful Sanctuary project which might interest some non-human teachers and they might show up in a limited way to help out. Though any help may be freely given, it will be on their terms.
Lonebear wrote:I actually discussed this possibility with the Nokk, several years ago. They didn't say "no," but there are many technical difficulties with things like getting a dwarf to teach metalworking to humans, or taking herbology from an elf. The reputation of humanity is not good, so it is probably best if we learn how to teach ourselves first, to show that we can be a good student.
I have been having some more recent conversations with the Nixies on this kind of topic though I was thinking even more basically than metalworking and herbology. I was thinking more along the lines of just getting along better, being better stewards of the natural resources (and the Earth), becoming more integrated people (i.e. between the material and cosmic sectors), and so forth. They have indicated to me that they are not interested (other LMs may or may not be more or less interested). However, if a group were to mostly isolate themselves and meet certain requirements (I'm sure being a good student is one of them), then they might consider it.

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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:20 am

I just wanted to share some thoughts on living in rapport.

"Courting rapport" sounds a bit like the efforts one makes to court a mate, which reminds me somewhat
of the current rivalry system because of the competition that is usually involved in other "potentials".
That is, until you look at it from a level of intellect(spirit). It would then become a process of
actually uniting the material and cosmic sectors(marrying them) together for the purpose of a truer
conscious interaction with other intellects - a rapport within oneself first, then with others.

This, would also be, where the "ego" conscious would survive past "death" and thereby the need for
competition(its own survival) would be 'transcended'.

This kind of existence is completely 'alien' to ALL of the current systems in place.
A kind of deprogramming would need to take place in the psyche of each individual(which the information
on this website can actually do) and the old 'operating system' shut down, before the 'new' united-for lack of
a better term- intellect can form and then operate.

I am a little unclear myself as to how to navigate as this is also taking place within me.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:30 am

I have further thoughts I would like to post about the current systems of rivalry
but will most likely start a new topic.
Rivalry is so pervasive that I think it may be 'encoded' in our DNA
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:58 pm

The movie Phenomenon has been on my mind today also because my current definition
of rapport is somewhat similar to something stated in that movie.
When Travolta's character was talking about an "agreement" between himself and the
molecules of the sunglasses he was twirling.
Directly affecting the outer, from the inner.
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Change

Post by LoneBear » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:16 pm

Obzistian wrote:"Courting rapport" sounds a bit like the efforts one makes to court a mate, which reminds me somewhat
of the current rivalry system because of the competition that is usually involved in other "potentials".
That is, until you look at it from a level of intellect(spirit). It would then become a process of
actually uniting the material and cosmic sectors(marrying them) together for the purpose of a truer
conscious interaction with other intellects - a rapport within oneself first, then with others.
You should know me and my intellectual sense of humor by now... it has multiple meanings, since the original comment was concerning "inner courts," and the play on "courting" as "attempts to gain favor with" the concept of rapport. Also, the L-M "Seelie Court" is the "Rapport Court" and the origin is from the Latin cohort, which is actually a farmyard--the Monastic farm in rapport with Nature.
Obzistian wrote:This, would also be, where the "ego" conscious would survive past "death" and thereby the need for
competition(its own survival) would be 'transcended'.
Your comment has made me wonder if a person that is locked into the rivalry mode of thinking could ascend... because of the competitive nature, I suspect that they would get stuck in the reincarnation cycle (or sucked up by the soul harvesters). Ascension is build upon the shen (kundalini) bioenergy, which is generated from the Qi of balanced karma (yang qi and yin qi in balance, with the masculine and feminine aspects of the psyche). If that is the case, then "mass ascension" is ruled out, by natural consequence. To paraphrase an old bit of wisdom, where a Trojan Horse is replaced by a UFO... "Beware of ETs promising ascension."
Obzistian wrote:This kind of existence is completely 'alien' to ALL of the current systems in place.
A kind of deprogramming would need to take place in the psyche of each individual(which the information
on this website can actually do) and the old 'operating system' shut down, before the 'new' united-for lack of
a better term- intellect can form and then operate.
Interesting you mention this, as I was discussing this with a friend last weekend... how people get programmed, and if it is possible to deprogram them without massive violations of karma and free will. It is an interesting question of ethics, because if they are responding to social programming, then it was not a conscious, free will choice that they are behaving the way they are--they are just being robots, executing their programming. And that begs the question as if there is anything BUT a robot actually "in there."

What was concluded was that if there is someone "in there," an ethical consciousness within the programmed holodeck experience of this Matrix that we live in, they should recognize an "Exit" sign when they encounter one. I was thinking about it afterwards, and had these thoughts:

It comes down to destruction (yang cycle) versus creation (yin cycle). The classic "spinning of the great wheel." Rivalry applies to BOTH destructive AND creative actions. Defeat the competition at their game, or create a new product that will blow the competition away--both rivalry. Rapport would be the superset of destruction and creation--destroy something discordant to create something harmonic. In other words, rapport is change... a balance between the yin and yang. Or, as Dewey Larson put it, after 40 years of living with his concept of motion, recognized that his entire system was nothing more than "abstract change in three dimensions."

I'm not talking about the concept of destroying a forest and creating a beer factory. Rapport would be that all involved benefit from the change. Our current system of "change" is actually "replacement," where one system replaces another, through destruction and creation. Change through rapport would be finding the way for both systems to compliment each other, to mutual benefit.

So the "Exit" sign would be the recognition of "change for the better," not just replacing one system for another, but to learn to outgrown them. Visiting a community where this is done all around you could make a very large "Exit" sign.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:35 pm

LoneBear wrote:
"I'm not talking about the concept of destroying a forest and creating a beer factory. Rapport would be that all involved benefit from the change. Our current system of "change" is actually "replacement," where one system replaces another, through destruction and creation. Change through rapport would be finding the way for both systems to compliment each other, to mutual benefit."

This was where I wasn't making the connection, an enhancement, not a replacement.

LoneBear wrote:
"So the "Exit" sign would be the recognition of "change for the better," not just replacing one system for another, but to learn to outgrown them. Visiting a community where this is done all around you could make a very large "Exit" sign."

Yes, it would.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by joeyv23 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:36 pm

Obzistian wrote:I just wanted to share some thoughts on living in rapport.

"Courting rapport" sounds a bit like the efforts one makes to court a mate, which reminds me somewhat
of the current rivalry system because of the competition that is usually involved in other "potentials".
That is, until you look at it from a level of intellect(spirit). It would then become a process of
actually uniting the material and cosmic sectors(marrying them) together for the purpose of a truer
conscious interaction with other intellects - a rapport within oneself first, then with others.

The concept of courting rapport has impacted my psyche in a big way. In the past week, I've found myself in time/space 'courting' a new love interest and upon waking, knew without doubt that 'she' was rapport. My temporal landscape is changing, buildings.. factories.. skyscrapers.. hospitals.. malls are being deserted and destroyed/decaying. Subsequently new constructs are popping up extremely quickly. Whereas I had seen the buildings that were now destroyed be built and it took years for some of them, these new edifices, homes.. libraries.. locally owned shops (as compared to shopping malls) went up so fast that I didn't realize they were being built until they already were.
Obzistian wrote:This, would also be, where the "ego" conscious would survive past "death" and thereby the need for
competition(its own survival) would be 'transcended'.

This kind of existence is completely 'alien' to ALL of the current systems in place.
A kind of deprogramming would need to take place in the psyche of each individual(which the information
on this website can actually do) and the old 'operating system' shut down, before the 'new' united-for lack of
a better term- intellect can form and then operate.

I am a little unclear myself as to how to navigate as this is also taking place within me.
Yes to all of that!! I've tried several times to state what you just have so brilliantly. So many people are convinced that ego is the enemy, and quite a few of them are convinced there's no way to make a relationship work and it must be destroyed. Tried talking about this in a "5d" galactic chat room once and was instantly labeled a shill, a paid misinformant, among other more tasty monikers you wouldn't expect to come out of people who were just so in love with everything that all they could remember how to type was '<3's. Not disparaging the people, I've been there too, (high on love is a hell of a drug) just making note of the oxymoronic behavior.

Since things have started changing with me this most recent time, I'm questioning the change less and paying attention to what is leaving my awareness and to what is/has been coming into it. The message I keep getting from myself if I ready myself for a mental tirade about 'why/how' is this: Stop chasing your tail when you should be following your nose. It's helping :)
LoneBear wrote: In other words, rapport is change... a balance between the yin and yang. Or, as Dewey Larson put it, after 40 years of living with his concept of motion, recognized that his entire system was nothing more than "abstract change in three dimensions."

I'm not talking about the concept of destroying a forest and creating a beer factory. Rapport would be that all involved benefit from the change. Our current system of "change" is actually "replacement," where one system replaces another, through destruction and creation. Change through rapport would be finding the way for both systems to compliment each other, to mutual benefit.

So the "Exit" sign would be the recognition of "change for the better," not just replacing one system for another, but to learn to outgrown them. Visiting a community where this is done all around you could make a very large "Exit" sign.
In light of what I just mentioned as to my 'courting rapport', this makes perfect sense. Up until recently I was complacent in how things have been, but have taken steps to change my situation. The big thing was getting mobile again, and I have a motorcycle now, so when the time comes and I feel like I want to take a trip, I can. I've ended two very toxic relationships which has been a huge weight off the shoulders. I pay more attention to what others have to say now, as compared to always speaking up to lend my 2 pennies. There's change in the air, and I'm embracing it now more than ever. Whatever will be, will be. I'm letting go of stress about what's to come for us all, and focusing on maintaining myself at a place of balance. As always I'm here for anyone that asks of me, but I'm no longer going out of my way, expending energy where it could otherwise be saved.
Last edited by joeyv23 on Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:59 pm

joeyv23 wrote:
Obzistian wrote:I just wanted to share some thoughts on living in rapport.

"Courting rapport" sounds a bit like the efforts one makes to court a mate, which reminds me somewhat
of the current rivalry system because of the competition that is usually involved in other "potentials".
That is, until you look at it from a level of intellect(spirit). It would then become a process of
actually uniting the material and cosmic sectors(marrying them) together for the purpose of a truer
conscious interaction with other intellects - a rapport within oneself first, then with others.

The concept of courting rapport has impacted my psyche in a big way. In the past week, I've found myself in time/space 'courting' a new love interest and upon waking, knew without doubt that 'she' was rapport. My temporal landscape is changing, buildings.. factories.. skyscrapers.. hospitals.. malls are being deserted and destroyed/decaying. Subsequently new constructs are popping up extremely quickly. Whereas I had seen the buildings that were now destroyed be built and it took years for some of them, these new edifices, homes.. libraries.. locally owned shops (as compared to shopping malls) went up so fast that I didn't realize they were being built until they already were.
Obzistian wrote:This, would also be, where the "ego" conscious would survive past "death" and thereby the need for
competition(its own survival) would be 'transcended'.

This kind of existence is completely 'alien' to ALL of the current systems in place.
A kind of deprogramming would need to take place in the psyche of each individual(which the information
on this website can actually do) and the old 'operating system' shut down, before the 'new' united-for lack of
a better term- intellect can form and then operate.

I am a little unclear myself as to how to navigate as this is also taking place within me.
Yes to all of that!! I've tried several times to state what you just have so brilliantly. So many people are convinced that ego is the enemy, and quite a few of them are convinced there's no way to make a relationship work and it must be destroyed. Tried talking about this in a "5d" galactic chat room once and was instantly labeled a shill, a paid misinformant, among other more tasty monikers you wouldn't expect to come out of people who were just so in love with everything that all they could remember how to type was '<3's. Not disparaging the people, I've been there too, (high on love is a hell of a drug) just making note of the oxymoronic behavior.


Since things have started changing with me this most recent time, I'm questioning the change less and paying attention to what is leaving my awareness and to what is/has been coming into it. The message I keep getting from myself if I ready myself for a mental tirade about 'why/how' is this: Stop chasing your tail when you should be following your nose. It's helping :)
Love usually breeds hate of what it thinks(or feels) isn't love. I would much rather live in harmony with people, than love them.

A message from yourself to yourself, now that is an interesting topic. Once you are able to connect space and time in proper
coordination you can anticipate(or extrapolate) what you might say to yourself in the future looking "back" to now
and take an action to make a change. (I might go into my own experience with this at some point.)
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Ilkka » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:35 am

joeyv23 wrote:I've tried several times to state what you just have so brilliantly. So many people are convinced that ego is the enemy, and quite a few of them are convinced there's no way to make a relationship work and it must be destroyed.
I know this also. When I first began to "wake up" it was when I found David Wilcocks videos and the rest of his stuff. At that time I was also among the people that thinked the ego was the enemy and had to get rid of it, but then I thought that if the ego is the physical part of oneself then it is practically impossible to "kill"(ego death etc.). So I thought about more of rehabilitation or re-education for ones ego to play more nicely with others and so on. Also later on David had one link to the SoldierHugs site which later on became ConsciousHugs and I found the source for Davids information "Daniel" so I chose to got in touch with this "new" site and see where it goes.

So I think that ego can be "tamed" a little bit or more. I also hear alot of the saying which goes something like this "I can't help my own nature", but I think that one can help their own nature if they choose to do so, means to do so, is the real question though, which I guess some one has already answers for or then the ones themselves have the answers. Also like all things this one is no less, it takes time to change, some more than others.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:38 am

Ilkka wrote: So I think that ego can be "tamed" a little bit or more. I also hear alot of the saying which goes something like this "I can't help my own nature", but I think that one can help their own nature if they choose to do so, means to do so, is the real question though, which I guess some one has already answers for or then the ones themselves have the answers. Also like all things this one is no less, it takes time to change, some more than others.
"Tamed" is an interesting way to put it.
I think that Ego willingly submits the "reigns" of your will to intellect(spirit) when comprehending
that is where "control" of the life unit needs to be in order for it to consciously "survive".
Ego is not easy to reign in, neither is its reciprocal of shadow(cosmic ego).
Both are the "sides" of yang/yin. People(including myself in the past) tend to get
stuck in the rotation(or cycle) of yin and yang, until they become aware, then conscious of
the cycle.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Lozion » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:46 am

Fascinating thread everyone. An example I feel of intelligent rapport based exchanges on consciousness and ethics.

Like I wrote on CH, I try to live by agape, serendipity and synchronicity. Since I took the decision, Life/Nature/insert-other-term is in resonance with me (and vice-versa) and provides what I need even if some events may appear disruptive at first, they only serve the purpose of allowing me to keep on the Path...

One thought I had is if this connexion is made via an higher-self part of me residing in the cosmic sector, imagine what a core group of people together with similar intents and dispositions in a idyllic material sector setting would generate. It would only magnify many folds the effects of Shen on both sides.

I'm in :)
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:33 am

Arcelius wrote:When a community gathers together (whether online or in person though being in person certainly changes the dynamic), there is an egregore or thoughtform (potentially an SMC) that is created based on the individuals involved. There is often a difference in the egregore between the inner and outer courts of a occult society and the nature of the egregore reflects that. Like does tend to attract like in certain realms such as that of the spirit (anima/animus) rather than having opposites attract. The instruction given in the outer reflects that which is required to change in order to meet the minimum requirements for the inner court. Regardless of the skill acquired in the outer court, if rapport is not attained with the egregore of the inner court, then you will not be admitted and the reasons will be obvious to those in the inner court though not as much so to the individual. Many words to describe something that has happened and will happen with the Sanctuary Project (inner court) and the Antiquatis site (outer court). It also happens regularly in real life around things like sports teams and mascots (inner court equivalent would be the coaches, owners, and players) or corporations including brands (inner court equivalent is the C-level execs and large shareholders).
Something clicked(or clocked) for me when I read this for the 3rD time:

Inner rapport is what must be attained first, not necessarily with a court of people, society, or this monastery; but
within the personal body and mind, "led" by spirit(intellect).The information(outer court) on this sight is ALREADY set up to work
on an interactive basis. I would call the "SMC" here a kind of "interactive intelligence". The information is recognizable to those who are
already trying to find the "exit"(or entrance, if you perceive it from the cosmic) for consciousness to unite(or untie)
from ego/shadow and "bind" consciousness to the spirit through intellect.

The "inner court" on this site are those actively posting new information, new discovery, changes to info, etc.
They will automatically notice the "shift" in motion in an individual, when a person goes from just lurking, dabbling, etc.
and starts to INTERACT with the information and the people existing in this "community" and posting information of their own
(creativity, as LoneBear put it) motivating themselves from outer court to inner court.
THIS IS ALL IN RAPPORT WITH RS2.
Because the information here is trying to be both posted and understood in rapport with its "natural motion"(not the exact term I am looking for),
it should naturally reciprocate and "spawn" rapport in those seeking to harmonize.
A reciprocally resonating harmonic intelligence... wow, that's a mouthful.
Last edited by Obzistian on Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:34 am

interesting slip with "sight"... *ponders*
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Re: Courting Rapport

Post by Obzistian » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:19 pm

Lozion wrote:One thought I had is if this connexion is made via an higher-self part of me residing in the cosmic sector, imagine what a core group of people together with similar intents and dispositions in a idyllic material sector setting would generate. It would only magnify many folds the effects of Shen on both sides.

I'm in :)
Remember that cosmic sector "higher self part" of you is already connected to the material, though inversely.
The material and cosmic are "bound" to one another as a "life unit".
The idyllic setting, would be those who have harmonized both sectors in a "place"(as LoneBear put it):
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=278&hilit=play+the+game#p1630
that also resonates this harmony.
"A 'group' of places(people with harmonized 'intent and disposition'- I like that), congregating in space and time to create a PLACE for
other selves to also harmonize i.e. live in rapport with one another.
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