Business Proposal for Digital Detox

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Billy
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Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by Billy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:23 pm

Recently, I had a conversation with Spaceman, as a means of clarifying the nature and subsequent outline/format of a business proposal. Seeing as how the Sanctuary Project is so multifaceted in nature, I was a bit confused as to which aspect of the project exactly, at this point in time, requires the drafting of such a proposal (I was thinking that we were looking at drafting a proposal for one of the energy devices currently being worked on). Spaceman seemed to clear this up for me, as he stated that we are looking at drafting a proposal for the Digital Detox aspect of the project.

I myself have never before drafted an official 'business proposal' per say, though I have been involved in a number of different advertising/promotional campaigns, including during my time as a performing singer/songwriter; as well as while having worked as an Outdoor Environmental Educator for Tracker's Earth. However, after having taken a look over several business proposal templates, it appears that this type of a document is drafted to a particular entity, for a specific purpose, i.e. "we have this particular product or service to offer to your company, which will greatly benefit your current business structure; and here is why our product fits your needs specifically." Is this the format that we are looking to follow in terms of the drafting of a business proposal for the Digital Detox idea? If so, then to whom exactly would we be marketing this aspect of the Sanctuary Project? A number of different entities have previously been mentioned, including corporations (corporate retreats) as well as folks in the public sphere (essentially, open promotional campaign to anyone who may be interested, including individuals and families.)

Please feel free to share thoughts, as I'd like to sit down and begin working on this, but again, I am a bit confused as to how to begin.

As a note: Subsequent discussion has revealed that we perhaps wish to start in a 'grassroots' type of manner, in the form of a one-page overview of the Sanctuary Project; again, keeping it simple. From this could come a template that is more in line with a business proposal. Just a thought...

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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by joeyv23 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:16 pm

Billy wrote: Subsequent discussion has revealed that we perhaps wish to start in a 'grassroots' type of manner, in the form of a one-page overview of the Sanctuary Project; again, keeping it simple. From this could come a template that is more in line with a business proposal. Just a thought...
I think the grassroots idea is good as a starting point. It would be great to be able to provide a link at the end of that to the fuller aspects of the Project, the underlying premise that you and Spaceman are working on as well as a presentation of how we intend to have the project serve the function of a business as well. The business proposal, itself, I think, should be self contained and doesn't necessarily have to link back to all the other portions of the project. Just thinking about the corporate mindset. We're marketing primarily to orange/green and anything yellow or above could be a potential cause for confusion.
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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by LoneBear » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:27 pm

The digital detox is based around a growing concept called, "Nature Deficit Disorder." Though not an "official" diagnosis, it is well on its way to becoming one.

Though NDD is directed at children, it is applicable to the high-tech environments as well. Electronic equipment does block off most of Nature's signals and as a consequence of that, the developing world view within the psyche does not have a natural pattern to follow--the things that Nature would normally provide, such as the ability to navigate and determine direction, toxic and unhealthy conditions, the sensing of "warning" energy and most important, the loss of "common sense" are missing from children and techies.

A business proposal for a Digital Detox would need to document the "target market," which could include both groups, a definition of the problem (stress) and how it solves this problem (relaxing)--in a unique fashion that is not available through other distractions (chemicals, multimedia, classes, etc).

Any investor will want to know how to "monetize" it to make a profit. And if it is going to fund the Monastery, it would need to make a profit. Thinking about it, what the Digital Detox Center is doing is analogous to the old Betty Ford Center for recovery of addiction--and high-tech is an addiction. Perhaps the Betty Ford Center can be used as a model for this proposal.

But the bottom line will be: how much is it going to cost? That would include property, buildings, personnel, equipment and supplies to get it up and running--and keep it running until it can turn a reasonable profit to get the attention of potential investors.

So Billy... how much money is needed to get a Digital Detox facility up and running?
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Resource consumption

Post by LoneBear » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:44 am

Here are some statistics on average meat consumption, per person, per year, just to give some perspective:

0.047 cows per person
8.517 chickens and other poultry per person
0.196 pigs per person
12.857 fish and other marine animals per person

So, if 20 staff and 30 guests were at the center (50 people), the farm would need (per year): 3 cows, 426 chickens, 10 pigs and 643 fish. Also, some 31500 pounds of dairy, 13650 pounds of fruits and 20750 pounds of veggies. On the average, each adult consumes approximately 1996 pounds of food a year--and produces the corresponding amount of "fertilizer!" (That's less than 2 pounds a meal, which is reasonable. 12oz steak, fries and 12oz drink comes to 2.03 lbs.)

Just something to chew over... :D

Source: The Average American Ate (Literally) A Ton This Year
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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by joeyv23 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:09 am

8.5 chickens and just shy of 13 fish per person per year doesn't register in my mind as accurate unless whoever took the average considered and included developing countries where high percentages of the population are starving in their figures.
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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by janto » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:58 pm

Just a few thoughts...
So, if 20 staff and 30 guests were at the center (50 people), the farm would need (per year): 3 cows, 426 chickens, 10 pigs and 643 fish. Also, some 31500 pounds of dairy, 13650 pounds of fruits and 20750 pounds of veggies. On the average, each adult consumes approximately 1996 pounds of food a year--and produces the corresponding amount of "fertilizer!" (That's less than 2 pounds a meal, which is reasonable. 12oz steak, fries and 12oz drink comes to 2.03 lbs.)
If you're mostly studying and researching, and not physically laboring, you won't need anywhere near this quantity of food. I eat once a day, not three or more times, drink only water, and now carry very little extra or unnecessary weight around. (I've shrunk by 7 belt holes since starting my journey of internal inquiry.)

Don't overlook some important aspects missing from those statistics, for example: How much food do the animals consume to become food themselves for you? How much land do they need to graze on? Where do you shelter them? How many cows do you need in total, in order for you to eat 3 of them a year, and raise calfs to replace them? Where do you put all the fertilizer these produce? Do you harness the methane to cook with? Compost? Recycle? Who's going to do all this? Not to mention vegetables, fruits, etc.

And costs of "maintenance" (vet, farm facilities). Who looks after the animals? Slaughters them? Transport? Milks them? Makes the cheese? Cooks and prepares them? Where do you store the meat and milk products? With staff and guests, you're likely liable for being categorized as some kind public house, and would require certification and approved kitchen facilities to prep food in. This means, bureaucracy! Costs! Management! Yikes.

In light of your post on the Exponential Century, you might consider having robots do the tedious chores for you, such as milking the cows automatically (search "cow milking robot" on YouTube for examples), but these "improvements" are expen$ive, and better suited for commercial operations.

Alternatively, you might want to consider cowboy food instead: Beans. Make a big cauldron of it every day, and feed everyone easily, without hassle. Or go Nepal style instead: Dahl (a different kind of beans).

You'll lose a lot of weight in a very short time... And may discover you *need* a whole lot less than you currently imagine you will.

But that wouldn't be delicious now, would it?

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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by Billy » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:57 am

The digital detox is based around a growing concept called, "Nature Deficit Disorder." Though not an "official" diagnosis, it is well on its way to becoming one.
Really funny you mention this, because just this past weekend, while I was at Anahata, I glanced at a book concerning this very subject, i.e. "Nature Deficit Disorder". It was the first time that I had heard of such a thing. Unbelievable. What new psyche med are they going to invent now to askew the affects of this latest disorder? The DSM just keeps getting thicker. It also adds confusion, because I was under the impression that they are attempting to keep people out of nature, rather than to draw them back to it.

Having said this, yes, I agree, the concept itself seems to sum up perfectly what is happening today. I am encouraged to know that we here are coming up with a genuine solution.
A business proposal for a Digital Detox would need to document the "target market," which could include both groups, a definition of the problem (stress) and how it solves this problem (relaxing)--in a unique fashion that is not available through other distractions (chemicals, multimedia, classes, etc).
And I do have questions pertaining to how it is that the proposal should be worded. I could be poetic and magical with the words, really hit at the heart of what it is that we are getting at here. However, one of the things that I have noticed is this: When I start speaking in the ways that I do, i.e. pertaining to the goals of the Institute and the Sanctuary Project, it is perceived by others as being grandiose or lofty. I've gotten the word 'idealist' on a number of occasions. I have been hitting up against a lot of defense mechanisms, similar to what happened in one particular scene in "My Dinner with Andre". I get the feeling that folks are insulted by the fact that I am proposing a new way of living, as if to imply that there is something inherently wrong with their current way of life. Folks are taking it personally, which is why I am feeling that these concepts need to be introduced to others, at least initially, in an extremely simplistic manner. I get the feeling that Homo Sapiens Ethicus, and the core concepts involved in Sanctuary, are things that most folks will not at first grasp. Society has become so detached from the workings of natural law that the very definition of what nature actually is has become, like so many other things, quite convoluted. Most seem to think that it's the park down the street, not the dark and foreboding woods that lie beyond.

Again, I think that there are some fundamental points that I need to clarify before moving forward. If what we are doing is not meant to create a better way of life for all mankind, then how is it that we reach out to others without coming across as too simplistic nor too grandiose? I believe that careful consideration needs to be given to the framing of the words. I really don't want to seem as if I am over-thinking this; which, in case others haven't noticed, I have a tendency of doing :? . But I like to ask a lot of questions, to be certain that I fully grasp the concept.
But the bottom line will be: how much is it going to cost? That would include property, buildings, personnel, equipment and supplies to get it up and running--and keep it running until it can turn a reasonable profit to get the attention of potential investors.
So Billy... how much money is needed to get a Digital Detox facility up and running?
I think a lot of this is going to depend upon what happens in terms of the land. If the situation presents itself in which land is gifted to us as part of a living trust, and if that land is the right fit for us, then that does change the scope of what we'd be looking at in terms of initial expenses. Bruce - did you see my email pertaining to this?

In terms of the expenses that go into living and working on the land itself:
So, if 20 staff and 30 guests were at the center (50 people), the farm would need (per year): 3 cows, 426 chickens, 10 pigs and 643 fish. Also, some 31500 pounds of dairy, 13650 pounds of fruits and 20750 pounds of veggies. On the average, each adult consumes approximately 1996 pounds of food a year--and produces the corresponding amount of "fertilizer!" (That's less than 2 pounds a meal, which is reasonable. 12oz steak, fries and 12oz drink comes to 2.03 lbs.)
The rule that I have always abided by in terms of food preparation is: one quarter pound per person of each item, per meal. When cooking for others, that simple rule really seems to work (any caterer will follow this line of thinking). This ensures appropriate use of product, such that we are not wasting food. Most of the time, folks are eating way more than they actually need. When fresh, wholesome food is prepared in the proper way, (I myself flash cook all of my dark leafy greens with fresh garlic and lemon juice, which preserves the nutritional integrity), you'd be surprised at what takes place at the table, i.e. the delicious factor kicks in, and people don't feel like they need to be consuming vast quantities. The way in which the meal is served, and the pace at which it is eaten, also plays a significant role in this. The Japanese have got this formula down-pat in terms of Sushi and Sashimi prepping and serving. We should take our time eating, slowly, to allow food to digest between servings. Gathering around a food table is a sacred experience, one in which much can be learned through conversation. Nowadays, the 'shoveling' factor dominates. We can change that at the table, in unique ways, that will assist with our bottom line, i.e. returning a sense of 'ceremony' to the table.

In terms of livestock:

-3 cows per year seems manageable. That's a small stable set-up. However, they would require grazing pasture land (how much, I am uncertain). In terms of care: This is something that we are fully capable of learning and doing, on our own. Animal care, when taken from the perspective of the nomadic people's of the world, is not nearly as complex as it might at first seem; unless, of course, an emergency situation presents itself. Most modern vets apply toxic chemicals as medicines, both internally and externally; although there are more folks who are taking the time to learn about natural and holistic veterinary care.

-426 chickens is quite a set-up. We've currently got thirty of them here at the farm, and they really do take some managing, mostly in terms of cleanliness of the land. Chickens are funny little critters, and folks really do tend to develop a bond with them. We'd also be looking at an egg-gathering set-up, so this doubles as a source of protein, both from the meat of the chickens as well as from the eggs that they produce.

-643 fish: I have always been fascinated by the concept of hydroponics and hatcheries. Again, another thing that they seem to be doing right in the Far East. I do not know much about the model nor methods involved, but like so many other things, I would really like to learn.

-What about goats? As I understand it, goat meat is actually the most widely consumed meat in the world. We don't see much of it here State-side, but in most of the rest of the world, goat meat is in fact a main source of animal protein. And caring for goats can be quite the process :-)

In terms of fruit: Yes, would love to have and manage fruit trees. I take a great interest in apples, and pears. Starfruit and Lichee are also delicious. I go ga-ga over fresh pressed cider (always wanted a cider mill). The funny thing with me is: I don't really consume fresh fruit, (apart from starfruit and lichee), but I am nuts about dried fruit. Really concentrates the flavor (I enjoy the sweetness). Apples (such as Fireside, Arkansas Black, Jonah Gold) would be wonderful; depending upon the climate 'zone' in which we would be living, that is. Figs, dates, and plums (prunes) are also tremendously nutritious, and are a prime food source for my cat (yep, no kidding. She really likes them. This is following the trail of thought of the gypsies, who feed their pets dried fruit, grains, and certain veggies). However, climate dictates that perhaps figs and dates cannot be grown in Utah. Uncertain of this.

In terms of veggies: I've been learning here what it takes to grow and maintain healthy raised beds (what has come to be collectively known as a 'permaculture' model). Dark leafy greens maximize nutrition. Herbs are also wonderful to have around. Tomatoes also are a wonderful food source. In truth, I do believe that growing is not necessarily all that expensive in terms of the purchasing of product (open-field seeds). One thing to which we must pay particular attention is that of GMOs. We need to ensure that if we are purchasing seeds from outside sources, we are not purchasing genetically modified/terminator seeds of any kind. And they have gotten very sneaky with it.

In terms of dairy: One of the questions that arises is - how much dairy do we actually need? There has been so much controversy over the dairy issue, i.e. we should be drinking it raw, we should not be drinking it at all, that I am wondering whether or not we want to seek out alternative sources of calcium. Thoughts? One thing that I will say is that I'm thinking that the raw milk approach is most definitely the optimum approach in terms of maximizing health benefits. The 'raw milk will kill you' debate has been way overblown, and deeply misunderstood.

In terms of the, ahem, 'fertilizer', composting toilet systems are, in my opinion, most definitely the way to go. Years ago, I spent an entire summer researching this very topic, mostly from the standpoint of how other companies were doing it, and what the cost would be in terms of purchasing fully assembled products. What I came to find is that actor Ed Begley, Jr. seems to be at the forefront of this, developing advanced systems that go far beyond the 'crank and turn', grassroots approach :)

http://www.envirolet.com/edbegleyjr.html

With this group, however, we've got folks who are already fully aware of how these systems are built, so like most things, we are capable of doing it ourselves. One of the key questions would be this: What happens with the human waste? It cannot be used as fertilizer, so, in terms of 'cradle to grave', what is the end result? What use can be made of the composted material?

So, to sum up: I'd need to really break it down in terms of cost, one line item at a time. What also comes into play here are the price lines of items in a particular geographical area, i.e. prices in southern Utah might not necessarily be comparable to prices in central Minnesota.

This all does raise an interesting question: In any of these areas, how much collaboration do we wish to engage in with the outside world, i.e. local dairy/cattle/goat/chicken farms, local fish mongers, lumber and metal companies for raw materials, etc? This group is unique in that we have folks who are highly skilled in diverse areas, which again, means that most of what we construct will be constructed through the use of our own hands. One of the costs that was not considered here was that of shelter building, and all of the raw materials involved in this, from wood, to cloth, to metal, to furniture, rugs, cooking ware (i.e. a commercial kitchen space, the construction of which I am familiar), stove(s), oven(s), fridge(s), freezer(s), serving plates, cups, silverware, and so forth. Animal care also takes some doing: maintaining animal health, birthing new livestock, slaughtering of the animals (anyone here have experience with the slaughtering of livestock?) I've done it previously with rabbits. Manure, clay, sand, to enrich the soil. Again, I feel that we are going to need to collaborate with a number of outside sources, at least in the initial stages of development, with the goal being that we become a fully functioning, self-sustaining society of our own. I've taken a look at the Torrey/Teasdale farmer's market, and see potential to meet and introduce myself to many of the local growers, establishing relationships.

What I'm seeing is that this community comes together over time. We build an incredibly solid foundation, and continue to build upon this. Things are added over time. Unless we are 'thinking big', (which is the impression that I get), so that we can have the funds available to expedite the process, thus not taking decades to beautify the place.

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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by Billy » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:41 am

One big category that I forgot to include is that of grains: Wheat, Oats, Barley, Rye, and of course Rice. Grains are another category of food that have been deeply misunderstood. The research is flawed at best. The first four of this group require open fields, the last requires rice paddies (although here in MN, the Ojibwe have traditionally harvested wild rice from the lakes. Paddies are seen as destructive. And there truly is a significant difference in taste). Rice and other grains make up a fairly significant portion of my diet; again, with most of the wisdom in this area coming from the Far East. Spaceman and I were having a conversation about the Paleo diet fad, and how it's been seriously misunderstood, i.e. grains have been completely and utterly eliminated from the food pyramid, and replaced by giant slabs of smoked meats. If I ate like that, I'd look like Violet Beauregarde after eating blueberries!

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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by joeyv23 » Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:39 am

Billy wrote:
The digital detox is based around a growing concept called, "Nature Deficit Disorder." Though not an "official" diagnosis, it is well on its way to becoming one.
Really funny you mention this, because just this past weekend, while I was at Anahata, I glanced at a book concerning this very subject, i.e. "Nature Deficit Disorder". It was the first time that I had heard of such a thing. Unbelievable. What new psyche med are they going to invent now to askew the affects of this latest disorder? The DSM just keeps getting thicker. It also adds confusion, because I was under the impression that they are attempting to keep people out of nature, rather than to draw them back to it.
Nature Deficit Disorder has its roots in a book that came out in 2005. Perhaps it's the same one you came across? The DSM has nothing to do with it. If it ever makes its way into that list, I'll be incredibly surprised. Though not a legitimate diagnosis, I'm hopeful that some mental health practitioners might become familiar with it and then have a grounded context for helping people. Essentially, the idea of NDD could/should/needs to become viral (preferably after we've established the cure--Sanctuary). Perhaps we'll hear of "off the books diagnosis" one day. I've heard about a few doctors who were still actually interested in patients' health and not just the almighty dollar, so it seems possible in my mind that some might be able to approach this simply because it had the right buzzphrase ring to it.
A business proposal for a Digital Detox would need to document the "target market," which could include both groups, a definition of the problem (stress) and how it solves this problem (relaxing)--in a unique fashion that is not available through other distractions (chemicals, multimedia, classes, etc).
And I do have questions pertaining to how it is that the proposal should be worded. I could be poetic and magical with the words, really hit at the heart of what it is that we are getting at here.
As we discussed earlier today, I think sticking to a clinical/technical type of wording would be wise. There's a place for the magic in there, maybe hint ever so slightly at it with some natural imagery, but don't give too much. Again, state the problem, explain the convoluted ideas surrounding the issues that people are having as a result of it and then give the solution.
However, one of the things that I have noticed is this: When I start speaking in the ways that I do, i.e. pertaining to the goals of the Institute and the Sanctuary Project, it is perceived by others as being grandiose or lofty. I've gotten the word 'idealist' on a number of occasions. I have been hitting up against a lot of defense mechanisms, similar to what happened in one particular scene in "My Dinner with Andre". I get the feeling that folks are insulted by the fact that I am proposing a new way of living, as if to imply that there is something inherently wrong with their current way of life. Folks are taking it personally, which is why I am feeling that these concepts need to be introduced to others, at least initially, in an extremely simplistic manner.


We're not making underhanded implication as to the existence of there being something wrong with or rather that there is room for improvement in folks' current way of life. It's an outright stance that we're taking. The most effective means of discourse that I've found is in going straight for the dissatisfaction that most of us feel with the status quo reality. Concepts/buzzphrases like "rat race" or "people seem to be at a loss for direction in life" bypass the intellectual drives and speak directly to the soul of most people. Now, rather than trying to piece together who the hell you think you are to suggest that their life needs changing, the people you are conversing with begin to explore the feelings within themselves reflective of the things you've said. "You know, I HAVE noticed this feeling before and I've seen it in others too!"

The way of living we're introducing isn't new. The roots/foundation that we are sowing/constructing are different from what most are accustomed to, but the end product - a healthy, happy, independent, sustainable way of life is nothing new at all. In fact, it seems to me that you could quite easily explain it to pretty much anyone as a slightly different take on the American Dream with less of a focus on "upward social mobility" and more on the principles themselves. The society we live in is falling apart. It's blatant now for the vast majority to see and the hallmark of this breakdown is in the political blah blah going on right now in this country. If trod correctly and with care, this path can be walked with folks and you can get them easily to the point of seeing the need for something like a Sanctuary or lifeboat.
I get the feeling that Homo Sapiens Ethicus, and the core concepts involved in Sanctuary, are things that most folks will not at first grasp. Society has become so detached from the workings of natural law that the very definition of what nature actually is has become, like so many other things, quite convoluted. Most seem to think that it's the park down the street, not the dark and foreboding woods that lie beyond.
It is a bit trickier getting people to cross that moat with you. Homo Sapiens Ethicus is a Tier 2 concept. You might find some people, particularly in the green vMeme who are open to the idea of there being an untapped potential within humans--perhaps they've had or know someone that have had paranormal experiences themselves. For the most part though, people may have a particularly hard time with this. I'm fortunate to have been able to interact with as many people as I have due to my line of work to find out some of what works and what doesn't. Think of it like this... people are thirsty and want a drink of water. You can pour them a drink gently and fill their glass or you can point a fire hose at them, throw open the gate, and watch them tumble end over end over themselves. One method is met with appreciation. The other - as I'm sure you've experienced - not so much.
If what we are doing is not meant to create a better way of life for all mankind, then how is it that we reach out to others without coming across as too simplistic nor too grandiose?
All they need to know is that this is how we are attempting to create a better life for ourselves. WE know the potential inherent to the seed that we're trying to create. Others don't necessarily need that information up front. Point them in the right direction - let them walk there themselves.
I believe that careful consideration needs to be given to the framing of the words. I really don't want to seem as if I am over-thinking this; which, in case others haven't noticed, I have a tendency of doing :? . But I like to ask a lot of questions, to be certain that I fully grasp the concept.
Don't let the idea that your personal nature is a hindrance become a hindrance. Ask as many questions as often as you need to. Think about it as much as you feel you must. There is room for psychosynthetic balancing for all of us, but if you stress your current configuration, you're adding to the imbalance between complexes. We'll have ample opportunity to discuss this further in a couple of weeks when you're here. Just wanted to lay the groundwork for this now. You are not wrong for approaching things the way that you do. Keep that in mind.
In terms of livestock:
If you're buying 3 cows per year then it's a small stable set up. If we're raising a sustaining herd it will be more than that and we'd need more room. I personally think it would take more than 3 head of cattle a year to feed 50 people. Half a cow can easily feed a small family for a year. More than 4 mouths in that family and you're looking at needing more beef. I would venture to say, conservatively, that one cow could provide enough food along with other sources that have been mentioned for a year for 10 people. That puts us at needing to slaughter 5 cows per year. As far as the amount of land needed goes:
http://www.motherearthnews.com wrote:If your soil is fairly rich and rainfall exceeds 35 inches per year, you need about an acre per calf or at least two acres for a cow and calf. (Two is better for one, also, if your goal is to avoid supplemental hay or grain.) In a drier climate, you'd need to at least double these acreage requirements.
I'm going to get in touch with my uncle in the next day or so and get back to you on some of this with regards to raising cattle for beef. Off the top of my head... There are a couple of ways to go about this. To be self sustaining we'd of course need a bull and a few cows to breed him to. This seems to my mind to be the long term goal so we wouldn't need to jump right into this model just yet. We didn't raise cattle to slaughter ourselves on the farm I grew up on, but would sell them at market at around 18 months. To get started, we could raise calves in cycles. We'd need a diary cow to raise 3 calves (or 2 if we want to get milk from her as well) for about 5 to 6 months until she weans them off. After another 6 months we get another set of calves for her to raise. The weanlings can then be raised on grain for 18 months or if grass fed a little longer to make weight, probably 24 months. Reading online, I'm seeing where some folks are killing the calves before winter so they aren't even a year old. I'm thinking higher efficiency which is why my proposal for the amount of time to raise the cattle is longer. The reason for having the meat animals raised by a dairy cow rather than on a bottle with formula is that they grow larger and healthier. More muscle, less fat, and less monetary investment needed. Theoretically, you could do this at a 1-1 startup where you buy a diary cow and a steer for her to raise. You raise the steer, sell it, and then use the money to offset the initial investment and buy 2 calves. From there you're in business. You could have the animals growing up in such a rotation that selling one to market covers the cost of the next round while you slaughter the other one or two that was/were raised for food.
In terms of care: This is something that we are fully capable of learning and doing, on our own. Animal care, when taken from the perspective of the nomadic people's of the world, is not nearly as complex as it might at first seem; unless, of course, an emergency situation presents itself.
Agreed. Even emergency situations can be readily dealt with if you're adequately prepared.
-426 chickens is quite a set-up. We've currently got thirty of them here at the farm, and they really do take some managing, mostly in terms of cleanliness of the land.
I agree with this as well. I'm going to ask my mom and uncle about this. We wouldn't have to have 426 chickens on hand at one time, since we could raise them in rotation like I mentioned with beef cattle. I don't remember how often we would kill chickens on the farm which is what I would need to find out in order to get a numerical estimate of what would be needed.
What about goats? As I understand it, goat meat is actually the most widely consumed meat in the world. We don't see much of it here State-side, but in most of the rest of the world, goat meat is in fact a main source of animal protein. And caring for goats can be quite the process :-)
You can raise goats like you do cattle. Like their bovine counterparts, there are breeds for dairy and those for meat.

I had the opportunity to make the acquaintance of some very knowledgeable people in the past couple of weeks through my job. The Utah State Fair was in town and I shuttled several of the livestock judges to and/or from the shows. Most of them, after hearing about what I was here in Utah working for, gave me information to get in touch with them when we get ourselves to the point of having the ability to raise and tend livestock. To add to the types of the animals that you've listed, there is also the possibility of dorper sheep which is a meat breed. We could also use the wool for clothing, but due to the fact that these are a meat breed and not a breed raised for their wool, I think it would take a LOT of livestock to reasonably set ourselves up to make clothes. Where wool/clothing is concerned, I also have a connection to an Alpaca rancher here in Utah.
We need to ensure that if we are purchasing seeds from outside sources, we are not purchasing genetically modified/terminator seeds of any kind.
Agreed.
In terms of dairy: One of the questions that arises is - how much dairy do we actually need? There has been so much controversy over the dairy issue, i.e. we should be drinking it raw, we should not be drinking it at all, that I am wondering whether or not we want to seek out alternative sources of calcium. Thoughts? One thing that I will say is that I'm thinking that the raw milk approach is most definitely the optimum approach in terms of maximizing health benefits. The 'raw milk will kill you' debate has been way overblown, and deeply misunderstood.
Further exploration of this is definitely required. I'm of the personal mindset that dairy is good for kids, but adults don't need it so much. I take this stance from having looked at nature. Calves drink milk. Full grown cows and bulls drink water.

This all does raise an interesting question: In any of these areas, how much collaboration do we wish to engage in with the outside world, i.e. local dairy/cattle/goat/chicken farms, local fish mongers, lumber and metal companies for raw materials, etc?
Where farming is concerned, neighbors are you friends. Since we are talking about building a self sustaining community... a town of our own so to speak, those of us in the community would be the neighbors in question, but I think we would be wise to make and maintain connections with others who aren't a part of the endeavor.
Animal care also takes some doing: maintaining animal health, birthing new livestock, slaughtering of the animals (anyone here have experience with the slaughtering of livestock?)
I do. As far as butchering goes, I have pinpointed an ideal place in Vermont where I would like to go and learn the trade of humane/ethical slaughter and butchering. The slaughtering part isn't new to me, it's the butchering part that I need to learn. I could then bring the expertise back to Sanctuary and teach a couple of apprentices the methods learned.
What I'm seeing is that this community comes together over time. We build an incredibly solid foundation, and continue to build upon this. Things are added over time. Unless we are 'thinking big', (which is the impression that I get), so that we can have the funds available to expedite the process, thus not taking decades to beautify the place.
I look at it like this. Thinking big is great, but it's wise to plan for a long, cold winter rather than the prospect of a short, mild one. If we happen to find ourselves in a position to be able to fund the whole party all at once, then that's fantastic, but I'm personally taking the approach of thinking about establishing something over an extended period of time and keeping that in mind as I continue thinking about what this is going to take.
"Living is not necessary, but navigation is." --Pompey
"Navigation is necessary in order to live." --Me

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joeyv23
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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by joeyv23 » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:58 pm

An update on tending farm:

In regards to raising cattle for beef, I was right with my estimate of 5 cows per year. My family in Georgia said 6 per year for 50 people to be on the safe side, but this is probably erring on the side of large portions. After cows are slaughtered, they are hung in a freeze room for 10 days before they are processed and packed in deep freeze storage.

Where raising cattle is concerned, my family doesn't know much about raising beef cattle on a dairy cow and think that it might not work, but I found some sources online that indicate that it can be done. Otherwise, were we to raise our own small herd to maintain the inflow of beef into the diet of 50 people, I figure to be on the safe side, we would need about 13 head of cattle - 12 cows and a bull - to ensure that we stay on the surplus end of things. My granddad only raised steers - male cattle that are marked (castrated) - for slaughter. Heifers are raised and then sold at market in order to keep the genetic stock of the local herds diverse. If we go this route, then we'd need 6 steers for slaughter. With 12 cows healthy and able to rear calves, we improve our chances of meeting this quota. If for some reason we have more heifers one year, we could sell them and then use the funds to buy back steers for slaughter. This means that we have 13 adult cows producing between half a dozen to a dozen offspring. On the high end that puts us at 25 head of cattle to tend. Since we'll be raising the stock for beef for 18 months to 2 years, then at one time we might find ourselves with up to 25 grown or adolescent animals and 12 calves. This feels like a feasible estimation to me. I could take a pregnant cow and turn it into a small herd in 10 to 15 years if the funds raised from selling the stock that is raised from birth were used to increase the size of the herd. Otherwise we would be looking at purchasing this small herd outright to get started and self sustaining in beef production.

A parallel can be drawn between this and the hog situation but since hogs give birth to a litter of piglets, where cows usually only birth a single offspring per season, the turnover would be quicker. In talking with my mom and having her get in touch with my grandmother, oldest aunt and my uncle, I found that - given the methods my family employed - hogs are best slaughtered in the cooler season. My granddad always processed hogs in November. It's best to kill them when they are at or only slightly above 200 lbs. Any more weight on them than that and you're looking at a lot of lard to have to process. My mom informs me that my granddad would kill probably 8 hogs to feed 7 people for a year. This figures quite differently from the statistics in the link given for average food consumption so obviously there's probably an issue of whether my granddad would process and sell off some of the pork or that my family was eating an inordinate amount of pork per year. I lean towards the latter being the case since fat becomes energy and everyone was working steadily throughout the year in order to maintain.

If we raise goats to eat or to sell when grown (I'm personally not a fan of goat meat), it takes about 18 months to raise them into mature adult animals. We also haven't taken into consideration any food that might be obtained through hunting. Venison was a winter time staple back home.

In regards to janto's questions; As for who would be in charge of tending the farm, I'd be happy to take part in the role and I'm sure there are others who would be happy to do the same. I don't think that one farm between a few people would be very much of an over-expenditure of labor. Considering the inflow of Woofers and the aid that will be given by people there are the retreat, it won't be quite so difficult at all.

I was talking to Spaceman about it last night, that I foresee the establishment of Sanctuary to be a micro scale version of the evolution of human society at least to the point where industry comes into play and then rather than diverge the way that our society, by and large, has - we would continue on an ethical route that would see what we are doing go from community to town to cities. Eventually, we may end up with a type of society that looks sort of like the macro society in 2050 AD. I expect it'll take more than 35 years to get us there, but it's fun to ponder what might come and how what we're working for might have done to the state of our existence. Our first 100 year festival should be quite interesting! Our first 1,000 year festival surely will be. :)
"Living is not necessary, but navigation is." --Pompey
"Navigation is necessary in order to live." --Me

Billy
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Re: Business Proposal for Digital Detox

Post by Billy » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:39 pm

So Billy... how much money is needed to get a Digital Detox facility up and running?
Bruce: I'd like to make this one of the first projects that I get working on when I arrive in SLC. Having these detailed figures in place will give us a very good idea as to what we are looking at in terms of expenditures. There's a lot to consider here, and many questions that need to be asked.

Joey: Thanks for looking into all of this. Looking forward to talking more about it when I arrive.
As for who would be in charge of tending the farm, I'd be happy to take part in the role and I'm sure there are others who would be happy to do the same.
I would imagine that most everyone would be involved in some aspect of this, sharing the responsibilities.

Also, just a note again that I myself truly do find great benefit in the Eastern approach to diet, in which the consumption of fish plays a major role. I would be very much interested in designing and building facilities for hydroponics and hatcheries, i.e. aquaponics.

Again, looking forward to really diving into this when I arrive.

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