Heaven versus Ancient Heaven

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LoneBear
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Heaven versus Ancient Heaven

Post by LoneBear » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:42 pm

I noticed that the Su Wen book references to both heaven and hoary heaven, indicating that "heaven" was different in ancient times (hoary: ancient, venerated, revered). I have also run across such references in the Apocrypha; different adjectives but the same concept: "heaven" changed, one or more times, over the course of documented history (and by "documented," I do not necessarily mean "documented by humans").

The footnotes in Su Wen indicate that "hoary" was a clear and pure heaven, and the "heaven" that exists now is more greenish in color. I have not found any indication of time frames or situations that caused the change, outside of the Deluge, where it was known that the sky became clear (originally mist, the "dragon's breath"). So I would assume that hoary heaven was the post-deluge condition, and something changed during recorded, human history.

Anyone know of any myths or legends that might provide additional information here?
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Re: Heaven versus Ancient Heaven

Post by joeyv23 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:10 pm

LoneBear wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:42 pm
I noticed that the Su Wen book references to both heaven and hoary heaven, indicating that "heaven" was different in ancient times (hoary: ancient, venerated, revered). I have also run across such references in the Apocrypha; different adjectives but the same concept: "heaven" changed, one or more times, over the course of documented history (and by "documented," I do not necessarily mean "documented by humans").

The footnotes in Su Wen indicate that "hoary" was a clear and pure heaven, and the "heaven" that exists now is more greenish in color. I have not found any indication of time frames or situations that caused the change, outside of the Deluge, where it was known that the sky became clear (originally mist, the "dragon's breath"). So I would assume that hoary heaven was the post-deluge condition, and something changed during recorded, human history.

Anyone know of any myths or legends that might provide additional information here?
I think Gopi might be able to provide some insight from his knowledge of Steiner's work. From Steiner's discussions on the structure of the interior of Earth, an extrapolation can be made from the change that occurred in the structure in Terra correlating to a change within our species. I suspect that another correlation can be extrapolated from this to a change in our experience / the existence of heaven.
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Re: Heaven versus Ancient Heaven

Post by Djchrismac » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:05 am

LoneBear wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:42 pm
I noticed that the Su Wen book references to both heaven and hoary heaven, indicating that "heaven" was different in ancient times (hoary: ancient, venerated, revered). I have also run across such references in the Apocrypha; different adjectives but the same concept: "heaven" changed, one or more times, over the course of documented history (and by "documented," I do not necessarily mean "documented by humans").
Are you referring to heaven here as the sky/atmosphere in general, the sun or the Anunnaki Ark? From the text, I get the impression it is referring to the sun or the aether (qi) from the sun/heaven.
LoneBear wrote: The footnotes in Su Wen indicate that "hoary" was a clear and pure heaven, and the "heaven" that exists now is more greenish in color. I have not found any indication of time frames or situations that caused the change, outside of the Deluge, where it was known that the sky became clear (originally mist, the "dragon's breath"). So I would assume that hoary heaven was the post-deluge condition, and something changed during recorded, human history.

Anyone know of any myths or legends that might provide additional information here?
I wasn't aware of Su Wen but have downloaded a PDF for reference, looks interesting.

Could it be that hoary heaven is referring to a pre-deluge condition? Lots of the ancient writings and Egyptian art refers to and shows a red sun. This put me onto the following which is a good read about the reason why the ancients saw and painted a red sun, basically that it was due to space debris/mist/dust from these chaotic times in the solar system...

http://www.godkingscenario.com/gks/ra-r ... od-gks-6/3
http://www.godkingscenario.com/gks/hath ... bris-gks-2

...where heaven is the atmosphere/night sky/solar system and the mist is from a solar system catastrophe, giving a similar effect to sunset where the sun is seen as red through the mist and haze, this time due to cosmic debris.

Of course the references to the red sun in ancient times could just be the early stage of solar evolution according to RS2 but if the gods were having meteor and comet flinging wars for countless centuries then this also matches the red sun being recorded and you would expect a fair bit more space debris and differing conditions in the early solar system.

The website above looks like it could be worth investigating more along with the book Exteraterrestrial Sands:

http://www.godkingscenario.com/books/ex ... rial-sands

It's quite intriguing from the top link that the earth may have had a disc of debris at one point, do any ancient myths or legends say anthing about that off the top of your head? I'll have a look for references on this when I have more time later.

So in summary, hoary heaven could possibly be the pre-deluge state of the early solar system, or even the post-deluge state of the earth as a result of a cataclysm. This would also explain the green colour of the current heaven being a result of space dust/debris, which was previously clear.

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Re: Heaven versus Ancient Heaven

Post by Ilkka » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:01 am

LoneBear wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:42 pm
The footnotes in Su Wen indicate that "hoary" was a clear and pure heaven, and the "heaven" that exists now is more greenish in color.
Could they actually mean that it is in the cosmic side?
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Re: Heaven versus Ancient Heaven

Post by LoneBear » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:14 pm

Djchrismac wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:05 am
Are you referring to heaven here as the sky/atmosphere in general, the sun or the Anunnaki Ark? From the text, I get the impression it is referring to the sun or the aether (qi) from the sun/heaven.
Perhaps Zuoqian can translate the original Chinese characters into modern context? People translate based on the assumptions of the time and place they are in... it isn't 2700 BCE any more.

Given the time it was written, the "gods" were still present, so the Su Wen is probably the closest things we have to a human "technical manual." It will undoubtedly relate advanced concepts through symbol and metaphor, so like it needs a new look with a more advanced system, such as the RS.
Djchrismac wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:05 am
Could it be that hoary heaven is referring to a pre-deluge condition? Lots of the ancient writings and Egyptian art refers to and shows a red sun. This put me onto the following which is a good read about the reason why the ancients saw and painted a red sun, basically that it was due to space debris/mist/dust from these chaotic times in the solar system...
I am not sure what "heaven" in this context is referring to. In the RS, the fuzzy, red giant is the first evolutionary stage (not the last, as conventional astronomy believes it to be) and since stellar evolution is much shorter than they realize, it could actually have been red. No way to know at this point, but I HAVE seen it go from golden yellow to bright white in just 50 years. With all the pollution in the air, one would think it would have gotten MORE color and dimmer--did just the opposite.

Let me quote some of the references to hoary heaven:
If this [qi of heaven] is offended repeatedly,
then evil qi harms man.
[Hence] this [qi of heaven] is the basis of one’s lifespan.

3-15-1
The qi of the hoary heaven,
it is clear and pure, and as a result the mind is in order.
If one lives in accordance with it, then the yang qi is strong.
Hence the sages transmitted essence and spirit and they ingested
the clear qi of the hoary heaven, so as to have it communicate with their spirit-brilliance.
When the hoary heaven spreads qi it cannot leave [the laws of]
the five agents. Man exists within the qi; how could he not correspond to the Way
of heaven? Now, when man’s qi is in disorder, it does not follow the regularities of
heaven. Hence this is manifested in disease and death.
Mori: “The heaven is greenish (蒼). That is its proper color.
We do not interpret 蒼天 here in the sense of a specific color of heaven or the sky. Rather, in this passage 蒼 seems to express the limitlessness and/or old age of heaven.
Putting these quotes together makes me wonder if there are "speed ranges" to heaven, some kind of distinct zones, where "hoary" is not referring to age, but the sense of an "original state."
Djchrismac wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:05 am
The website above looks like it could be worth investigating more along with the book Exteraterrestrial Sands:
Unlikely the Earth every had a debris disk, as that would require 2-x intermediate speed motion to be present. The exosphere is 1-x; because we are an inside-out star, the mantle becomes the 2-x speed range--on the inside.

There are a bunch of these "new" theories floating around now. UM is based on the Earth having a water core, rather than fire. People seem to be dissatisfied with existing dogma, and are just using polarity (rather than reciprocity) to come up with answers.
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Re: Heaven versus Ancient Heaven

Post by zuoqian » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:45 am

LoneBear wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:14 pm
Perhaps Zuoqian can translate the original Chinese characters into modern context? People translate based on the assumptions of the time and place they are in... it isn't 2700 BCE any more.
I find the original text of several places where the English translation are "hoary heaven", the corresponding Chinese characters are "蒼天". My understanding from the contexts is this is just a respectful title for heaven, and the "蒼" should be regarded as a color of between ash-colored and green/blue. There is not any refer in particular to a different ancient sky.

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Re: Heaven versus Ancient Heaven

Post by LoneBear » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:06 am

zuoqian wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:45 am
My understanding from the contexts is this is just a respectful title for heaven
That would make sense; I run into the same thing in the Norse sagas.
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