Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

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Alluvion
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Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Alluvion » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:05 am

Over this Thanksgiving holiday I had lots of travel time to read and so I cracked open Ken Wilber's 'Theory of Everything'. This is helping me personally integrate the SpDy perspective into my own life but also assisting me in a evaluating large-scale social activity in terms of the memes.

Gay marriage is a potent mass meme-shift issue, almost entirely green. In just observing, it seems to activate people's primary meme-state rather intensely, with the blue-power structures scrambling to maintain a non-green shift and thereby providing an intense catalyst for a majority of the population to comprehend these patterns (through dissonance) and make a choice - maintain, regress, or progress. It would seem a majority of the people are choosing to progress, even if the decision is not so emotionally intense or personal, but 'just makes sense' in terms of basic human rights.

As a gay person, it is interesting to observe this from the standpoint of SpDy. Perhaps being in this particular minority is only helpful in propelling most people towards green, but isn't providing enough dissonance to step into tier-2. Yet an increase in green prevalence suggests a more intense shift up the spiral at this time.

Might there be a wisdom/compassion component to the dissonance of end-Green/start-Yellow? In an echo of sts/sto semantics - wisdom gets you to tier-2 STS and compassion gets you to tier-2 STO?

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Tulan » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:36 am

Alluvion wrote:Gay marriage is a potent mass meme-shift issue, almost entirely green.
Green? Isn't "marriage" a religious institution (Blue vMeme, truth force)? I see it as being a growth into the Blue vMeme. Many religious leaders are afraid of gay marriage because they are afraid of their own Animus, embracing the "truth" of the Animus (it doesn't stop at Blue though!). Also note that marriage as an institution isn't necessary for that growth, it provides security at the cost of free will (gravity also provides security at the cost of free will, context is important to consider).
Alluvion wrote:basic human rights
I believe there is only one "basic human right", that being the first distortion of the Law of One; free will.
Alluvion wrote:providing enough dissonance to step into tier-2.
As a gay person, are you prepared for the dissonance? As a bi person (who was once considered strait), embracing my Animus (or accepting my homosexuality) was a potent shift in consciousness for me. It was a shift that enabled me to retain Tier 2 consciousness. Tier 2 is holistic for a reason, all the parts must be one of the whole; if not, it is not whole (holistic) and your consciousness can't maintain the second tier without blowing a fuse.
Alluvion wrote:Might there be a wisdom/compassion component to the dissonance of end-Green/start-Yellow? In an echo of sts/sto semantics - wisdom gets you to tier-2 STS and compassion gets you to tier-2 STO?
Tier 2 is holistic qua "Kheb" or the "Third Path" or the "Magnum Opus". Tier 2-STO and Tier 2-STS are not applicable concepts because choice of one over the other would exclude (or repress) that other, therefore breaking the logical concept of holism.

Wisdom and compassion are, to me, Tier 2 aspects of the Animus and Anima, respectively.
Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song. - Kosh Naranek

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Alluvion » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:16 pm

Green? Isn't "marriage" a religious institution (Blue vMeme, truth force)? I see it as being a growth into the Blue vMeme. Many religious leaders are afraid of gay marriage because they are afraid of their own Animus, embracing the "truth" of the Animus (it doesn't stop at Blue though!). Also note that marriage as an institution isn't necessary for that growth, it provides security at the cost of free will (gravity also provides security at the cost of free will, context is important to consider).
While I agree that marriage is a Blue pattern, I think that the dissonance of alternative marriages provides a catalyst for the dissonance necessary to meme-shift. Marriage is one pattern available to Blue-levels for exhausting the potentials of that world view, and because of its intense pre/conventional prevalence is catalytic enough to engender the chance for meme-shift - but based on a slight recall of history, anytime a power/resource inequality becomes highly contrasted and minority Blue aims to become minority Orange using the rhetoric of Green, catalyst is available on all quadrants.

The meme-shift available then is for those seeing the limitations of Blue to choose on their own and enter Orange, and for those in Orange to utilizing their individuation to re-enter conscious relationships. Its also an opportunity for those in Green to either retain or re-evaluate Green values. If marriage wasn't so prevalent to the 4 quadrants I don't think it would be such a potent opportunity for catalyst.

Also important to consider, and perhaps even more fundamental, is that an individual typically isn't a pure vMeme (lines/streams etc). Interpersonal relationships provide a kind of intimately scaled context for vLine evaluation, so its not a total loss to ones free will, especially if you see this in terms of Orange inquiry. And in any case, like all things, its temporary.

Im currently in a relationship with an interesting mix of green/orange/blue - we are boyfriends, but we aren't sexually exclusive or in contract (blue), we are figuring out what want as individuals and as a couple and constantly negotiate dissonance/harmony (orange) and this is under a general Green banner of 'each doing our own thing' and 'being our own person'. Currently we are running into a little conflict because my Green sensibility to be my own drummer meets resistance with his Blue sense of romantic duty - and as per the SpiDy lit - green dissolves blue, yet he will cross certain boundaries in an effort to 'help'.
As a gay person, are you prepared for the dissonance? As a bi person (who was once considered strait), embracing my Animus (or accepting my homosexuality) was a potent shift in consciousness for me. It was a shift that enabled me to retain Tier 2 consciousness. Tier 2 is holistic for a reason, all the parts must be one of the whole; if not, it is not whole (holistic) and your consciousness can't maintain the second tier without blowing a fuse.
Again I'll bring up the inequality between developmental lines and 'over all' Meme level. And as such, I'd enjoy more explanation on your above statements. Are you suggesting bisexuality is latently Integral? If thats the case, I can see your point, since it includes the fundamental Beige-procreation drive. Are you saying as a personal bias your bisexuality was something you were previously repressing but now do not repress to be more "I" quadrant integral?

For me the shift to tier2 would not be from 'gay' to 'bi' but from 'gay' to 'queer' - in as much as I see my sexuality, in each meme, activated more towards the unconventional, but as that would establish an over all convention of 'unconventionality' I then polarize conventional sexuality as unconventional - so there is the opportunity for inclusion of all possibilities.

Tier 2 is holistic qua "Kheb" or the "Third Path" or the "Magnum Opus". Tier 2-STO and Tier 2-STS are not applicable concepts because choice of one over the other would exclude (or repress) that other, therefore breaking the logical concept of holism.

Wisdom and compassion are, to me, Tier 2 aspects of the Animus and Anima, respectively.
I understand that understanding. It would seem then that the STO/STS story line deals with the Tier1 memes exclusively, and then the harvest choice would deal with the movement into Tier2 permanently, instead of as peak experience as is far more common.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Alluvion » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:21 pm

In reading 'Theory of Everything' i've been making my own maps (as usual). I'm working on a map in which there are four typical levels to a human being (physical/biological/mental/spiritual), 4 quadrants (I/it/we/they), and the 8 initial vMemes:

archaic (might) - magical(order) - mythic might - mythic order - rational might - rational order -- integral instance - integral vision

Feedback on those terms would be appreciated.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by dbeaman1 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:55 am

well about a year and a half ago, I realized the love of my life is Becky so although I used to be purple, she tells me now I'm rainbow! LOL
oma

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by LoneBear » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:47 pm

Tulan wrote:Green? Isn't "marriage" a religious institution (Blue vMeme, truth force)? I see it as being a growth into the Blue vMeme. Many religious leaders are afraid of gay marriage because they are afraid of their own Animus, embracing the "truth" of the Animus (it doesn't stop at Blue though!). Also note that marriage as an institution isn't necessary for that growth, it provides security at the cost of free will (gravity also provides security at the cost of free will, context is important to consider).
Gay marriage is actually orange, because it is being "legalized" in a municipal corporation structure (State, District of Criminals, or federal "government"--which is also a corporation). It would only be blue if the churches were trying to make it part of their doctrine.

Marriage CAN be a religious institution, but it hasn't been in a while--particularly if you get a "marriage license". Any "license" is permission to do something illegal, so that means love and raising a family is illegal in the government sense, requiring their permission and inviting them in as a 3rd party in a marriage contract.

If you check, the marriage license was originally called an "Inter-racial Marriage License" (Black's Law Dictionary, early editions) since in the days of the Colonies, marriage between the races was illegal. But the government realized it had a good thing going, collecting all those fees and getting themselves in as a 3rd party, so they can use "social workers" to regulate families, and control "education" of the "profits" (children).

I think gay marriage, as a legal structure, is silly. The constitution protects everyone's right to contract. If you want to enter into marriage (contract) with ANYONE, do it with GOD, not the STATE! I'm sure God has no objections in allowing love to flourish, in any form.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Alluvion » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:11 pm

The more we talk about this, the more it seems like gay marriage has a facet in each wave if the spiral, depending on the intent and worldview of the individuals and groups involved. The legalization is orange, the main opposition coming from Blue wavers and their world view, while Greens see the point of enforcing equality on all the barbaric "lower Memes."

the 'God' contract doesn't provide for dealing with the mechanisms of Orange cultural function. From a tier 2 perspective, how is the Orange contract NOT useful?

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Arcelius » Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:42 pm

Alluvion wrote:the 'God' contract doesn't provide for dealing with the mechanisms of Orange cultural function.
Perhaps the point was that it is not necessary to deal with the Orange cultural function. It is a choice. If you choose to, then there are some benefits. There are also benefits of choosing not to do so.
Alluvion wrote:From a tier 2 perspective, how is the Orange contract NOT useful?
A tier 2 perspective may see that everything has its use in its own place. From inside a tier 2 perspective, the legal system is highly restrictive and limiting even to the point of curbing helpful activities. For those not higher up the spiral, it is the best thing going.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Tulan » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:30 pm

LoneBear wrote:It would only be blue if the churches were trying to make it part of their doctrine.
Okay, gotcha.
dbeaman1 wrote:well about a year and a half ago
DebbieQ is back!
Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song. - Kosh Naranek

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by dbeaman1 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:03 am

LOL! just stopping by to catch up with you all. How are things in Alexanders world? and everyones for that matter. Mine has definitely been topsy-turvy this past year and a half. think I stepped off the grid for a while.didn't see that last step coming! miss you though
oma

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Raytrek » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:15 am

I do not know anything about the colour scheme you are talking about but here is my opinion on gay marriage. Marriage was originally a religious term but has been made a legal term. If the law recognises gay marriage it forces the hand of the religious institutions, meaning that a church cannot refuse to marry a gay couple on the grounds of discrimination. It becomes a case of anti-discrimination versus freedom of religion. The only realist way out of this jam is to do what governments have been pushing to do for some time and that is the separation of church and state. I am saying that the law must abandon marriage as a legal term for all applicants for licence in favour of terminology along the lines of 'civil union'. Then all legal implications toward marriage are nullified. People are then free to call their union marriage, be it recognized by a religious organization or not, without this anti-discrimination versus freedom of religion conflict.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Arcelius » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:38 am

Raytrek wrote:I do not know anything about the colour scheme you are talking about
It is from Spiral Dynamics. See http://www.spiraldynamics.org/ for more information and there are many books and other materials that relate to this theory. It originated with Dr. Clare W. Graves (to give you more search terms if you are interested).
Raytrek wrote:If the law recognises gay marriage it forces the hand of the religious institutions, meaning that a church cannot refuse to marry a gay couple on the grounds of discrimination.
The State (or law) gives permission to certain people outside of itself (i.e. Justice of the Peace and a few select others) to perform marriages. They don't have to though they have typically recognized that they don't want to perform all marriage ceremonies. Typically, religious ministers must register with the State annually in order to continue to be able to perform legal marriages. If you want to ensure that you are getting a legal marriage, then you should ask to see this registration for the State in which the marriage will take place.

More to the point, it is up to the State as to whether marriage registrants (ministers) will need to perform marriages for anyone who asks. The Justice of the Peace (or euqivalent) would need to marry anyone who can be legally married (though some jurisdictions make some exceptions though they still need to ensure that someone is always available to perform such marriages).

Most places that I am aware of will allow marriage registrants to refuse to perform any marriage. They can legally perform marriages but they are not required to perform any specific marriage. Ministers may apply whatever discrimination they may have on religious, moral, or other grounds. Though I'm sure that you can find exceptions, I think that this is more of the norm in the US and Canada.
Raytrek wrote:It becomes a case of anti-discrimination versus freedom of religion.
Blue (religion for all whether you like it or not) versus Orange (free enterprise for all whether you like it or not).
Raytrek wrote:The only realist way out of this jam is to do what governments have been pushing to do for some time and that is the separation of church and state. I am saying that the law must abandon marriage as a legal term for all applicants for licence in favour of terminology along the lines of 'civil union'. Then all legal implications toward marriage are nullified. People are then free to call their union marriage, be it recognized by a religious organization or not, without this anti-discrimination versus freedom of religion conflict.
I think that most governments would rather that they were treated as a religious body (i.e. God on Earth). I would say that governments should completely get out of the marriage business (as should religious bodies). There is usually criminal legislation dealing with relations between people closely related so that side of things is covered. But then, what would the divorce lawyers do?

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Raytrek » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:46 pm

Arcelius: Thanks for the link, I had a quick glance but I may look further into it.
I have come to accept that everything I do is to appease myself, even the selfless things I do are to make myself feel more selfless, a motivation based on appeasing me.
Some say God is love and others say he is much more than just that, I say that even if he (not that I think God is gender specific) is much more then none of that 'much more' is even remotely as relevant to mankind as love. I feel that anyone who insists God is anything more or less than love is missing the point.
But of course there are multiple definitions of love and without specifics, using the term love to explain him is a misdirection. I see that humans are the ones in nature with a variable on the definition of love, but the meaning becomes clearer when you trace back. See how animals coexist, how cells have symbiotic relationships, how atoms conform to complex structures and even if you look at the quantum level, relationships are found.
Now, science does not like to use love as a technical term, unless the are speaking of neuroscience (chemical reactions in the brain, release of endorphins, and whatnot) but what better way to explain these relationships in nature than love? I mean, you can come up with a complex mathematical equation or formula or you can call it God at work, but to me; love seems to be the key ingredient in everything. And such a view appeases myself, reguardless of how selfless it may seem.
I have seen love in gay couples, the fundamental truth beyond concepts, right and wrong, morals and ethics, opinions, prejudices. This is my view of God in its purest form, that these gay couples are embodying, and the negativity toward that truth has nothing to do with God in my eyes.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Arcelius » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:18 pm

Raytrek wrote:Some say God is love and others say he is much more than just that, I say that even if he (not that I think God is gender specific) is much more then none of that 'much more' is even remotely as relevant to mankind as love. I feel that anyone who insists God is anything more or less than love is missing the point.
And the point is what exactly? The Ra Material talks about love of the self and the love of the other-self and the choice between the two. However, the choice need not be about love at all (see the Kheb path).
Raytrek wrote:I have seen love in gay couples, the fundamental truth beyond concepts, right and wrong, morals and ethics, opinions, prejudices. This is my view of God in its purest form, that these gay couples are embodying, and the negativity toward that truth has nothing to do with God in my eyes.
In The Ra Material, Love is used more like a mathematical or scientific term. However, most people on the Earth have no understanding of that Love so defined. That understanding comes with the gaining of polarity which most people don't do or want to do.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Raytrek » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:20 pm

Yes, I define love not in human conceptualisation of it but as the natural relationship that exists between all the things that make existence possible, even down to the quantum level, perhaps even beyond it. The point is that the coexistence of cells that combine to form greater complexities is an example to humans who are lost in the conceptual world. It does not have to be as complicated as we are all insisting upon.
It is just that cells do not (or seem not to) have all the concepts that we do yet they display love in their relationships, is that hard? No it is natural, a natural inclination that we over look because it is not conceptual.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by LoneBear » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:21 am

I define "love" with different terms, all of which are attractive principles:
  • Gravitation (inanimate, chemical attraction)
  • Eros (biologic, sexual for reproduction, conventional "love")
  • Logos (mental, the attraction of minds or souls)
  • Agápē (spiritual, devotion to God)
Yep, it's all Greek to me!

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Arcelius » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:03 pm

Raytrek wrote:Yes, I define love not in human conceptualisation of it but as the natural relationship that exists between all the things that make existence possible, even down to the quantum level, perhaps even beyond it. The point is that the coexistence of cells that combine to form greater complexities is an example to humans who are lost in the conceptual world. It does not have to be as complicated as we are all insisting upon.
It is just that cells do not (or seem not to) have all the concepts that we do yet they display love in their relationships, is that hard? No it is natural, a natural inclination that we over look because it is not conceptual.
OK. I guess I just don't see what love as you are using here has to do specifically with gay relationships. Unless you are just saying that such relationships are as natural as other ones.
LoneBear wrote:Yep, it's all Greek to me!
The Greeks had 4 words for love:
  • affection (storge) = fondness due to familiarity such as between family members
    friendship (philio) = exists between people who share common interests or activities (sometimes including sex)
    eros (eros) = passionate love and longing though not necessarily sexual in nature (though most often is)
    charity (agape) = unconditional love or holding another in very high regard
All of which are also attractive.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Raytrek » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:23 pm

Yes, attraction is but one part of it though. There is basically coexistence, then it goes on to combination in unity, a collaberation toward contructive purposes. Every explaination of love you and I have just come up with is a conceptualisation but these things exist in nature that exercises these truths without conceptualised thought (that we know of) as evidence that love is more than just a concept devised by man.
How it relates to gay relationships also is not a concept but simply because they exist, they are as natural as any other relationship at the most fundamental level because they display the basic principles of every other relationship in creation. That is; attraction, coexistence and combining in collaberation toward constructive purpose.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Arcelius » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:57 pm

Raytrek wrote:Yes, attraction is but one part of it though. There is basically coexistence, then it goes on to combination in unity, a collaberation toward contructive purposes. Every explaination of love you and I have just come up with is a conceptualisation but these things exist in nature that exercises these truths without conceptualised thought (that we know of) as evidence that love is more than just a concept devised by man.
I agree that it is more than just a concept devised by man. However, I think it is worth exploring. Conceptualization is a way of exploring something. Experiencing something is another way. One purpose of life is to learn and gain understanding. This is a process rather than an end result. Nature exists but does it understand itself?
Raytrek wrote:How it relates to gay relationships also is not a concept but simply because they exist, they are as natural as any other relationship at the most fundamental level because they display the basic principles of every other relationship in creation. That is; attraction, coexistence and combining in collaberation toward constructive purpose.
Your elucidation of these basic principles are, in themselves, a conceptualization.

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Re: Gay Marriage and Meme-Shift

Post by Raytrek » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:47 am

Arcelius
Your elucidation of these basic principles are, in themselves, a conceptualization.
Haha, absolutely, but of course I mean they display the aspects of the relationships between all things in nature, the aspects that exist in not only life that as far as we know has no conceptual thought, but matter, energy and even things on the quantum level. Maybe these things do or do not have conceptual thought but because they do not seem to display it, they are not classified as sentient. So because they display love in this sense, it is either evidence that they actually are sentient, which changes everything, or that love in this sense is a fundamental truth of the universe, which also changes things.

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