Free Will, or No Free Will... that is the Question

General discussion about the Elder Race, Life, the Universe and Everything.
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LoneBear
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Free Will, or No Free Will... that is the Question

Post by LoneBear » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:49 pm

I have been pondering the concept of free will and predestination, and if there actually IS such a thing as free will. The Law of One material states that "free will" is the first distortion and therefore a major contributor to everything that exists.

The question initially rose indirectly from some of Gopi's comments concerning what is "natural" evolution, which asks the question of "where do you draw the line?" If aliens intervene in the genetic evolution of earth creatures, is that an act of free will, or were they just predestined to do that to begin with, just playing a part of this predestined pattern?

The question rose again when I was studying the concepts of dimension and density, trying to write a short paper on the difference for the RS2 site. What appears to be an act of free will at one density or dimension, can be viewed as predestined at a higher density or dimension. This is the same pattern I've seen before--the yin-yang aspects of something else.

It looks like the old Tao folks had it right, all along. You have the "motion", as Larson would call it, based in unity and having two aspects. One aspect is a projection from unity to nothing (zero), the yang, and the other is a projection from one to everything (infinity), the yin. They are always together and are inseparable. As the Vorlons say, "understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, my side and the truth." But in this case, yin, yang and tao.

But what to do with this free will concept... it seems we have the free will to chose within our own density and dimension, but are tethered to a string from higher realms, only allowing us "just so much" freedom of choice within the realm. When we evolve to that higher realm, then what was predestined now becomes free will, and the process becomes a recursion. (That is also what my study of dimension revealed--it is recursion, not arithmetic multiplication.)

I guess one could call it the "tao of choice," with the yang aspect of free will, and the yin aspect of predestination.

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Re: Free Will, or No Free Will... that is the Question

Post by Raytrek » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:36 am

I made a statement that may be relevant, or not...



I would love to say everything is tracable by cause and effect, but concept adds a new variable to the equation. Concept itself effects and is effected but it also has the power to create and destroy cause. So a reason for everything? Free-will Vs Predestiny? If you choose that in your world, or the lack of choice is a default choice in itself. I can tell you that as a rule people are subjects to their experiences and conditioning but this rule is NOT absolute, as that conditioning can be largely disolved with application of discipline. I can also say that I do not see how confirmation of either as fact can change a life one iota, we remain unknowing as far as linear existence. (edit, I don't mean to be rude, but under my own considerations I have had trouble resolving that last part)

I have a view along lines of "predestiny after the fact", something is not nessecerily meant to happen until it does, at which point it always was meant to happen. I also have an analogy as to describe how I would see the Predestiny/Freewill relationship:

It is like a train, passengers get on and get off (life/death?), but while on board they may indulge any number of interactions, or lack there of. They may speak with other passengers, read a book, computer, phone, maybe there is a tv, a bar (Orient Express), maybe they bump uglies in the facilities with a random stranger, or just go to sleep, who knows? But the train has its set destination and schedual, that does not change, although a passenger may fool around with the emergency brake, or a cow on the tracks, (really not knowing the metaphor these represent, just the range of variables of life I suppose) and delay it, but it will inevidably arrive there. The question is if a mad bomber can take it all out? That could really shake things up.

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Re: Free Will, or No Free Will... that is the Question

Post by LoneBear » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:12 am

I suppose it comes down to the conceptual difference between predestination (100% predictable) and free will (random).

Anything that is designed, is designed to obey a set of rules. If something obeys a set of rules, then it is 100% predictable. If there is a God, and He designed the Universe, than everything is 100% predictable and there is no randomness.

Randomness is actually a very difficult process to generate. Computers use pseudo-random numbers, because the sequence, though appearing random, is 100% predictable if you know the parameters going in to the process.

In all the years I've spent in Nature, I have yet to find anything that is truly random. Nature is reactive, and reacts according to a predictable set of laws. A person that decides to fall asleep on a train is "predestined" to do so, because it is just a response to a series of influences and established behavior patterns. Even if they consciously knew that, and decided to override the impulse to sleep, that would be predictable because of established behaviors and therefore "predestined."

I have not yet been able to locate the randomness required for free will.

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Re: Free Will, or No Free Will... that is the Question

Post by Arcelius » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:51 pm

Ra - Law of One wrote:16.5 Questioner: What is the source of this random number generator? Is it created by the Guardians to balance their guarding? Or is it a source other than the Guardians?

Ra: I am Ra. All sources are one. However, we understand your query. The window phenomenon is an other-self phenomenon from the Guardians. It operates from the dimensions beyond space/time in what you may call the area of intelligent energy. Like your cycles, such balancing, such rhythms are as a clock striking. In the case of the windows, no entities have the clock. Therefore, it seems random. It is not random in the dimension which produces this balance. That is why we stated the analogy was within certain limits.
Your post reminded me of this comment from the Law of One. It may help solve your quandary.

I am also reminded of fractals and chaos theory where all of the randomness being generated still produces the same pattern even though a single point may be less predictable. There are ways of enhancing the seemingly randomness of a pseudo-random number generator (i.e. make it more difficult to ascertain the original parameters). Even so, the same patterns result from the same fractal regardless of the random number generator used.

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Re: Free Will, or No Free Will... that is the Question

Post by LoneBear » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:51 pm

Arcelius wrote:I am also reminded of fractals and chaos theory where all of the randomness being generated still produces the same pattern even though a single point may be less predictable. There are ways of enhancing the seemingly randomness of a pseudo-random number generator (i.e. make it more difficult to ascertain the original parameters). Even so, the same patterns result from the same fractal regardless of the random number generator used.
That is the same effect of the non-localization of temporal structures in coordinate space. What seems chaotic from space, makes perfect sense when looked at from a temporal perspective. That is the essence of chaos theory--the strange attractors are in time, the "force field" effects that appear to create randomness are in space.

But when you "see" both sides, and still don't see much in the way of free will... then what? Cause and effect become one and the same; so are you actually making a free-will choice, or just being "chaotically moved" from something beyond space and time?

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Re: Free Will, or No Free Will... that is the Question

Post by Arcelius » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:10 pm

LoneBear wrote:But when you "see" both sides, and still don't see much in the way of free will... then what? Cause and effect become one and the same; so are you actually making a free-will choice, or just being "chaotically moved" from something beyond space and time?
I would see us as having a limited free-will. Within certain parameters, you are free to make some choices. From the chaos theory, instead of linking this directly to temporal and spatial only, I think of it as being a specific instance of a more general principle. I see space and time as being guided by a pattern that is outside of both. As one progresses, I can see that this pattern may change or it may be that we move to a different part of the pattern.

I believe that from the perspective of those who set the patterns that where the individuals land in the pattern is less important than the pattern itself. Those who demonstrate an understanding of the pattern may progress to learning other patterns and may eventually start setting their own patterns. The divine sparks are created and sent out but not so they can do whatever they please or so that they can be entertained. As one progresses and explores more of the pattern that the feeling of being able to make choices seems diminished. Perhaps on other side of that, there comes an increase in the perceived number of choices that can be made as more of the pattern becomes available.

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Re: Free Will, or No Free Will... that is the Question

Post by Raytrek » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:30 am

I look at it as two worlds: There is the "Fate" world which has some kind of purpose beyond our knowing, the universe has some best possible ends for itself and all this cause and effect that naturally exists is all working toward that.
This process has resulted in us, if we are a factor in the best possible ends of the universe I don't know. For the most part people can be predicted, as experiences and cultural normality has conditioned us and our abilities of interpretation all conspire to a specific point in a range of possible responses. I say for the most part because some people recognize their conditioning and by way of duality in reason they can disolve attachment. This leaves them in a possition that they can, with the application of discipline, focus their responses and behaviours to any given point in the possible response spectrum.
You could say this is just another form of condition, in accord with the usual predictive behaviours, but the common person cannot choose their response, the latter person can choose anywhere within the 100%s of response, or they can choose not to respond at all.

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