Photons!

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MrTwig
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Photons!

Post by MrTwig » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:14 pm

I don't know if it was a dream or just think of a problem I'm having with photons late at night. There seems to be a conflict with how they are defined. I know that there is electromagnetic radiation to define light. We all know about the different lengths of wave for various radiations. Radio waves, X-rays, Gamma rays, and light waves. From what I understand the Photon is a special case that we have studied and have greatly used in many ways. What I want to know is does it really exist? Could it be a different form of electrons? Electrons seem to be the building blocks of atoms. Atoms, form material, on up the chemical chart that we base our lives on. Yet in all the describing the Photon is only used for a special case. I believe that the Universe is run by Electrical phenomenon because of other theories that I keep coming across and are better than what is current prescribe by the establishment. If I am right Photons do not exist.

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Re: Photons!

Post by LoneBear » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:06 pm

MrTwig wrote:If I am right Photons do not exist.
It may be a problem with "labels," rather than physical structure. Larson's photon is nothing more than a reversal of a scalar direction--the outward progression is reversed by in inward motion, in a repeating cycle giving the wave effect.

Nehru's version of birotation utilizes two, opposite rotations, basically a positron and electron (both 1D rotations) spinning oppositely, and being reduced by the Euler formula to a simple harmonic motion. Nehru's model accounts for polarization, splitting (Stark splitting and polarization into two beams by crystals), magnetic effects (Zeeman) and the breakdown of a photon into a positron-electron pair.

Just as Larson treats particles as "incomplete atoms," Gustave LeBon, in the 1907 publication, The Evolution of Matter, treats photons as "incomplete particles," inferring that photons actually have a variety of different structures that account for their differing behaviors.

Miles Mathis has his photon field, which has properties similar to a charge field in the RS. (Gopi would be the one to clarify this aspect, as he's gone over Mathis' work in far more detail than I have.)

The Electric Universe folks have a similar approach, also basing relationships on the observed, 1-dimensional spatial connection that is termed "electric."

Eric Dollard has a wider scope where he obtains the photon motion by the quantum intersection of dielectric and magnetic fields, making them the expression of this electromagnetic intersection.

Then you have the magnosphere folks that treat photons as giant, EM "force fields" moving like a string of beads.

The "photon" I use in my RS2 model is based on the quaternion, which is a composite of all of the above ideas. What you label a "photon" depends on what kind of slice you take of that rotational system--how many dimensions, and whether they are real (spatial) or imaginary (temporal), from our conventional reference system perspective.

I no longer agree with Larson's "direction reversal" being a photon, as it simply does not possess the properties of observed photons. It actually matches the idea of a "graviton" better, since that is exactly what it does--moves opposite to the progression, and we call that movement, "gravitation." Nehru's birotation is a closer match to the observed photon, which is a compound structure that is common in decay products, matching LeBon's theory.

So I would not say that the photon "doesn't exist," as much as we have most likely labeled a number of similar, but different, decay products as the same thing, obfuscating the nature of the photon--or whatever structure you want to apply that label to.

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Re: Photons!

Post by MrTwig » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:32 pm

LoneBear wrote:It may be a problem with "labels," rather than physical structure. Larson's photon is nothing more than a reversal of a scalar direction--the outward progression is reversed by in inward motion, in a repeating cycle giving the wave effect.
Exactly my point I believe. Something is doing what the photon is doing but it is still not defined correctly.
LoneBear wrote:Nehru's version of birotation utilizes two, opposite rotations, basically a positron and electron (both 1D rotations) spinning oppositely, and being reduced by the Euler formula to a simple harmonic motion. Nehru's model accounts for polarization, splitting (Stark splitting and polarization into two beams by crystals), magnetic effects (Zeeman) and the breakdown of a photon into a positron-electron pair.
Nehru's version is more correct in my opinion.
LoneBear wrote:Just as Larson treats particles as "incomplete atoms," Gustave LeBon, in the 1907 publication, The Evolution of Matter, treats photons as "incomplete particles," inferring that photons actually have a variety of different structures that account for their differing behaviors.
Maybe this is what started me think about it in the first place.
LoneBear wrote:Miles Mathis has his photon field, which has properties similar to a charge field in the RS. (Gopi would be the one to clarify this aspect, as he's gone over Mathis' work in far more detail than I have.)
I have this new idea come alone about the Star War's light saber, what do you think?http://www.gizmag.com/photonic-molecule ... 4/pictures
LoneBear wrote:The Electric Universe folks have a similar approach, also basing relationships on the observed, 1-dimensional spatial connection that is termed "electric."
Well that is a disapointment.
LoneBear wrote:Eric Dollard has a wider scope where he obtains the photon motion by the quantum intersection of dielectric and magnetic fields, making them the expression of this electromagnetic intersection.
OK, I will have to check into this.
LoneBear wrote:Then you have the magnosphere folks that treat photons as giant, EM "force fields" moving like a string of beads.
Never heard of this theory but it sound kind of sixties.
LoneBear wrote:The "photon" I use in my RS2 model is based on the quaternion, which is a composite of all of the above ideas. What you label a "photon" depends on what kind of slice you take of that rotational system--how many dimensions, and whether they are real (spatial) or imaginary (temporal), from our conventional reference system perspective.
Still working or digesting your model but is sound complicated.
LoneBear wrote:I no longer agree with Larson's "direction reversal" being a photon, as it simply does not possess the properties of observed photons. It actually matches the idea of a "graviton" better, since that is exactly what it does--moves opposite to the progression, and we call that movement, "gravitation." Nehru's birotation is a closer match to the observed photon, which is a compound structure that is common in decay products, matching LeBon's theory.
I agree with the birotation theory too.
LoneBear wrote:So I would not say that the photon "doesn't exist," as much as we have most likely labeled a number of similar, but different, decay products as the same thing, obfuscating the nature of the photon--or whatever structure you want to apply that label to.
Thank you for explaining. I don't feel quite as miss informed as before. As Data would say "Processing, processing..."

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Re: Photons!

Post by LoneBear » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:55 am

MrTwig wrote:I have this new idea come alone about the Star War's light saber, what do you think?http://www.gizmag.com/photonic-molecule ... 4/pictures
The article describes an idea of "photon molecules", thus:
"When these photons interact with each other, they're pushing against and deflect each other. The physics of what's happening in these molecules is similar to what we see in the movies." explains Professor Lukin.

Photons are massless and do not interact with each other. While the first part of this statement remains true, the discovery challenges the second part by demonstrating that in a specially prepared medium, photons can act as though they interacted with each other, by doing so indirectly via atoms.

What conditions are then required? The scientists first pumped rubidium atoms into a vacuum chamber and cooled them down with lasers to temperatures barely above absolute zero. They then shot single photons into the cloud of atoms.

What happens to photons in this medium is similar to what happens to light refracted in a glass full of water. As photons enter the cloud, they loose part of their energy to the medium. Photons start exciting the atoms in their path and, in effect, slow down dramatically.

However, this exchange of energy between photons and atoms is governed by an effect called the Rydberg blockade, whereby in a certain volume no two atoms can be excited to the same degree. This means that, once a photon has excited an atom, it has to move forward before another photon can do the same.

Effectively, photons start pushing and pulling each other through the medium, behaving much like molecules. On leaving the medium, photons are back to their original energy state (the energy is transferred back from the atoms to the photons) but they emerge as molecules rather than as single photons.
In the RS, photons are fixed at a location in the absolute reference system, so they cannot move relative to each other--they never collide. Think of it this way: glue two marbles on a conveyor belt. The marbles are carried by the belt, but can never hit each other, because they are fixed at a specific location on the belt. There is no "force of repulsion" between photons. It also means you cannot shoot a "single photon" because a photon has no independent motion of its own. It is the gravitating atoms that run into the stationary photons.

Photons do not lose energy when "entering a medium." Atomic systems, such as water or Rubidium are temporal displacements--chunks of time. So when the photon intersects an atom, it takes MORE time to move the SAME AMOUNT of space, so it APPEARS to slow down, relative to its speed in a vacuum. There is no exchange of anything.

The vibrational speed of the photon (frequency) will have different, but limited, effects on the atom, depending on whether the displacement is in time (LF, radio, light) or in space (X-rays, gamma rays). So it can "vibrate" something as it passes through, either the magnetic rotation (positive charge), electric rotation (negative charge), or add/subtract to the thermal motion of the atom. But nothing is exchanged. As such, the energy claimed to be transferred to the atom by the photon does not need to magically reappear in the photon when it leaves the medium, because nothing was ever exchanged--just the shadow in 3D space changed shape a bit as they crossed paths, overhead. (I noticed how they avoided explaining how the energy deposited in an atom on one side of the cloud, just reappears in the photon as it leaves the other side of the cloud.)

The conclusion is erroneous in the RS; what is going on is two things: lasing (photons moving through the time of the atoms, ending up in adjacent locations) and bundling (sorting by frequency). The photons are not gravitationally bound like a molecule (impossible, given the premise they are massless). Not really much different than a bunch of cars entering the Interstate Highway from a lot of entry ramps, and all heading in one direction in clumps of vehicles, traveling at the same, relative speed.

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Re: Photons!

Post by MrTwig » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:37 pm

MrTwig wrote:I have this new idea come alone about the Star War's light saber, what do you think?http://www.gizmag.com/photonic-molecule ... 4/pictures
LoneBear wrote:In the RS, photons are fixed at a location in the absolute reference system, so they cannot move relative to each other--they never collide. Think of it this way: glue two marbles on a conveyor belt. The marbles are carried by the belt, but can never hit each other, because they are fixed at a specific location on the belt. There is no "force of repulsion" between photons. It also means you cannot shoot a "single photon" because a photon has no independent motion of its own. It is the gravitating atoms that run into the stationary photons.
Could it be that RS just shows how the photon is like a matrix or crystal that does not move, but with time and spacial densities, change in form? Could the photon be the "box"?
LoneBear wrote:The conclusion is erroneous in the RS; what is going on is two things: lasing (photons moving through the time of the atoms, ending up in adjacent locations) and bundling (sorting by frequency). The photons are not gravitationally bound like a molecule (impossible, given the premise they are massless). Not really much different than a bunch of cars entering the Interstate Highway from a lot of entry ramps, and all heading in one direction in clumps of vehicles, traveling at the same, relative speed.
Lasing is optically directing photons or energy into a small area is it not? Frequency determines the level of movement related to time of the electromagnetic force through a spacial location. By increasing the level of frequency does not the light barrier become crossed from low to high or space to time? If light is the barrier could it not be the medium which we call in RS "motion"?

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Re: Photons!

Post by Ilkka » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:42 am

LoneBear wrote:It is the gravitating atoms that run into the stationary photons.
I dont know much about electricity and all of the nuclear science things. This one question comes to mind. How does the electric lamp give off light then?

One thing comes to mind immediately after I wrote the question is, that the photons that are stationary in material sector are set off by the cosmic sector motion in time at "light speed" to produce illumination to the material sector. So it is the inorganic material in the lamp which is usually Tungsten that is the gravitational atoms that interact with stationary photons. Hard to explain since it just came to mind.

Tell me if I am near about this photon thing :D
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Re: Photons!

Post by LoneBear » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:17 pm

MrTwig wrote:Could it be that RS just shows how the photon is like a matrix or crystal that does not move, but with time and spacial densities, change in form? Could the photon be the "box"?
Actually, I've never thought of photons in a crystal matrix, but yeah, that makes for a pretty good visualization. Yes, the photon is "the box" in Larson's analogy, which divides motion into two aspects, space and time.

I suppose you could also visualize atoms in the crystal as black or white "holes," where the black hole (temporal displacement) would contract the crystal at a point, and the white whole (spatial displacement) would push it apart.
MrTwig wrote:Lasing is optically directing photons or energy into a small area is it not? Frequency determines the level of movement related to time of the electromagnetic force through a spacial location. By increasing the level of frequency does not the light barrier become crossed from low to high or space to time? If light is the barrier could it not be the medium which we call in RS "motion"?
Something that I found out when looking at some experiment that involved lasers, was that laser light is circularly polarized--it's not a simple, harmonic motion but looks more like a coil spring. Nehru discusses this in his papers on birotation.

Linearly polarized light remains fixed at its absolute locations, so if you tried to use linear polarization for a laser, it wouldn't work--the beam would spread as it moved, because of the progression increasing between photons.

However, when light is circularly polarized, it is moving "inward" in another scalar dimension, as as such, jumps single locations--when the progression moves it out in one dimension, it hops back to where it was before, thus maintaining the same spacing between photons. We see this as a coherent beam in 3D space. The intensity of the light is how many of those absolute locations in that beam are occupied by photons.
Ilkka wrote:I dont know much about electricity and all of the nuclear science things. This one question comes to mind. How does the electric lamp give off light then?
Might want to read this post on RS2: hairy head moving towards two photons from the opposite side issue

It discusses that situation. Because it is scalar motion, it is rather hard to visualize. But consider this analogy--if you put spots on a balloon and inflate the balloon--how do the spots move away from each other? That is basically the situation that is going on, but in three dimensions.
Ilkka wrote:One thing comes to mind immediately after I wrote the question is, that the photons that are stationary in material sector are set off by the cosmic sector motion in time at "light speed" to produce illumination to the material sector. So it is the inorganic material in the lamp which is usually Tungsten that is the gravitational atoms that interact with stationary photons. Hard to explain since it just came to mind.
The tungsten produces a simple harmonic motion, then gravitates away from it, leaving it behind. In essence, the filament is not emitting photons, as much as it is "leaving them behind" as it moves gravitationally.

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Re: Photons!

Post by MrTwig » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:18 pm

LoneBear wrote:
MrTwig wrote:Could it be that RS just shows how the photon is like a matrix or crystal that does not move, but with time and spacial densities, change in form? Could the photon be the "box"?
Actually, I've never thought of photons in a crystal matrix, but yeah, that makes for a pretty good visualization. Yes, the photon is "the box" in Larson's analogy, which divides motion into two aspects, space and time.

I suppose you could also visualize atoms in the crystal as black or white "holes," where the black hole (temporal displacement) would contract the crystal at a point, and the white hole (spatial displacement) would push it apart.
Could it look like this?
imagesyingyang.jpg
imagesyingyang.jpg (5.15 KiB) Viewed 5094 times

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Re: Photons!

Post by LoneBear » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:31 pm

I use the taijitu symbol frequently in RS2, as it is very descriptive of the relation between the material and cosmic sectors (white=space, black=time), and the inverse relation of the time and space regions within. The white material sector has a "dot" of time regions that are the atoms; the black cosmic sector has a similar dot of space regions that are cosmic atoms (antimatter).

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Re: Photons!

Post by MrTwig » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:06 pm

LoneBear wrote:I use the taijitu symbol frequently in RS2, as it is very descriptive of the relation between the material and cosmic sectors (white=space, black=time), and the inverse relation of the time and space regions within. The white material sector has a "dot" of time regions that are the atoms; the black cosmic sector has a similar dot of space regions that are cosmic atoms (antimatter).
So this is the two revolving pieces of matter that make up the photon? Matter and Anti-matter electrons, or sub particles spinning around each other. As they move back and forth or spiral around each other they make the Photon. How energetic they are is what rate of movement we experience. Faster than normal creates the higher wave length or time displacement and slower creates the lower wave lengths or space displacement. If nothing disturbs them we see light or a reflection of material. They are in both dimensions of time and space.

Interest also is a theory of Paul LaVoilette http://etheric.com/ called subquantum kinetics that to me describes in part this process.

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Re: Photons!

Post by LoneBear » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:52 am

MrTwig wrote:So this is the two revolving pieces of matter that make up the photon? Matter and Anti-matter electrons, or sub particles spinning around each other. As they move back and forth or spiral around each other they make the Photon.
Keep in mind that "matter," as conventionally understood, is an illusion or shadow that is being cast by the underlying scalar interactions (we call it "Euclidean geometry"). The interaction takes place at the scalar level. If you were watching the shadows, you would see a spinning electron shadow, a spinning positron shadow, but when they merged, all you would see would be the resultant sine wave.

To visualize scalar interactions, you would have to be able to see and comprehend the "affine" stratum of projection, but our physical senses don't do that because there is no absolute scale and multiple dimensions may run at different scales.
MrTwig wrote:How energetic they are is what rate of movement we experience. Faster than normal creates the higher wave length or time displacement and slower creates the lower wave lengths or space displacement. If nothing disturbs them we see light or a reflection of material. They are in both dimensions of time and space.
If you're talking speeds here, s/t, then more time = slower because you are dividing and more space = faster, since you are multiplying.

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Re: Photons!

Post by MrTwig » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:35 pm

LoneBear wrote:
MrTwig wrote:So this is the two revolving pieces of matter that make up the photon? Matter and Anti-matter electrons, or sub particles spinning around each other. As they move back and forth or spiral around each other they make the Photon.
Keep in mind that "matter," as conventionally understood, is an illusion or shadow that is being cast by the underlying scalar interactions (we call it "Euclidean geometry"). The interaction takes place at the scalar level. If you were watching the shadows, you would see a spinning electron shadow, a spinning positron shadow, but when they merged, all you would see would be the resultant sine wave.
Sorry, I forgot about the scalar level. My bad.
LoneBear wrote:To visualize scalar interactions, you would have to be able to see and comprehend the "affine" stratum of projection, but our physical senses don't do that because there is no absolute scale and multiple dimensions may run at different scales.
Sayyyyy Whaaaaat! Really! Whoosh right over my head. :roll:
LoneBear wrote:
MrTwig wrote:How energetic they are is what rate of movement we experience. Faster than normal creates the higher wave length or time displacement and slower creates the lower wave lengths or space displacement. If nothing disturbs them we see light or a reflection of material. They are in both dimensions of time and space.
If you're talking speeds here, s/t, then more time = slower because you are dividing and more space = faster, since you are multiplying.
I do tend to get things backward a lot. Something about where I came from I guess. So the faster energy, x-rays, gamma rays and cosmic rays are slower in space? And the slower energy waves radio rays, ultra-violet rays and the such are faster in space? I'm still stuck in reality from what I understand. Back to the books for me! Thanks for trying though. :D

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Re: Photons!

Post by LoneBear » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:26 pm

MrTwig wrote:Sayyyyy Whaaaaat! Really! Whoosh right over my head. :roll:
There are 4 basic layers (called strata) in projective geometry, which are how assumptions are added to go from scalar motion (the projective stratum), to affine, to metric, to Euclidean. Our senses understand the Euclidean projection, which has an absolute scale of 1.0 in all dimensions, so everything looks the same size. The metric strata removes that uniformity across dimensions, so each dimension has its own, independent scale--that means a cube (with all sides equal) could appear to be stretched or shrunk, because the height, width and depth can all have independent scaling.

It's a little confusing to understand; I am trying to do something in the RS2 presentations concerning it, as projective geometry defines all the assumptions our consciousness makes to get from scalar to "matter."
MrTwig wrote:I do tend to get things backward a lot.
Well if daniel is right, then you're getting a clearer view of things than everyone else!
MrTwig wrote:Something about where I came from I guess. So the faster energy, x-rays, gamma rays and cosmic rays are slower in space? And the slower energy waves radio rays, ultra-violet rays and the such are faster in space? I'm still stuck in reality from what I understand. Back to the books for me! Thanks for trying though. :D
Your X-rays and Gamma rays are what Larson calls "HF" (High Frequency) and are spatially displaced, so they are "faster." If you notice, atoms are "time" structures and X-rays, being spatial, can pass through atoms of matter because the relation of space (x-rays) to time (atoms) constitutes motion.

The visible spectrum and radio waves are LF (Low Frequency) and are temporally displaced, which is why you can block things like light with a sheet of paper, since time (light) to time (atom) is NOT motion.

I'm removing the references to Cosmic rays that was in some of the stuff I wrote, because they really aren't "rays" per se, but particle streams from the cosmic sector. Different phenomenon, so I want to separate them out from "rays."

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