Babylon 5

Discussion of Science Fiction motifs, symbols and allegory.
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Babylon 5

Post by Tulan » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:20 am

Lately I have been sucked into B 5 by LoneBear and am quite enjoying it. The amount of symbols and motifs within such an entertaining format is fun. Also quite accurate.


What are the common symbols and allegory found in creative format today? Such as television shows, movies, books, poetry etc...

All of the symbols within specific presentations can be applied macro and micro cosmically. The trick of course, is to find something YOU are interested in.

The common symbolism you can find almost anywhere, such as the good guys vs the bad guys are used in almost every media format for entertainment. Most derived from: Faireys vs Demons. The most recent interpretation of those stories can be found in Lord of the Rings. Deeper meanings and symbols within story structures like that, are everywhere, just, much harder to find.

Symbols for the Phi-Core can be found in many many of these stories, Brother hood of the Ring (LOTR), The Rangers (B5) and etc...

Symbols of character interplay and lessons to be learned are everywhere within the stories.


As an example many of the stories that I relate well with, are:

Frank Herberts Dune
Babylon 5
Farscape
The Matrix
Stargate SG1 (Although I have not watched very much of it, the symbols are there)
Attilas Sword
Virtues of War (great fiction book written to be historically accurate on Alexander the Great)

Many many, other movies, and written stories are on this list.
What are the stories that everyone here finds symbols in? What are some of the symbols and allegory all of you are able to find within these stories??
Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song. - Kosh Naranek

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by sky » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:37 pm

As a child I grew up with comic books and superheroes...Anyone else love X-MEN? But a series that stood out and kept me looking up to the stars for answers is ELFQUEST. Does anyone know this story? It goes like this...Some higher beings come down from the stars in a crystal palace...they find human/ape types and try to reach out - but many are driven back into the palace, many are killed. One called Timmain...the mother of the high ones shapeshifts into a wolf to survive...others escape and hide. Many of the remaining higher being elves are treated like gods by the humans.They are tall and beautiful and glow with light. Several elven tribes develop and over time loose track of each other but the quest begins when the wolf tribe...descendents of Timmain, and very animal like, start searching for the other missing tribes. The other tribes represent each of the elements have different skills...some can fly and live in the mountain peaks {air} , some live in the desert with one in particular who can heal{sun/fire} , some in the great north in the ice {water} some in the forests/trees {earth}...they join together as one to find their lost home...they can all speak without words and often find love through what they call recognition. The story is lovely and stood out to me as a kid and teenager. I related to it even then. Fairies are mentioned and they are called 'preservers' and the elves are constantly having to deal with violent humans who either worship them or kill them. They are also have to fight with Trolls who want the crystal palace as their own. There is one very old elf who lives with the 'sunfolf' elves called THE MOTHER OF MEMORY...her name is Savah. I have one of the high ones as a tattoo on my arm. Her name is Winnowill. She is considered controlling and manipulative and battles within herself constantly , searching for the truth...thus living up to her name WIN-OF-WILLS...She has both a positive and negative side. She dies but is REBORN. Does this story sound familiar to anyone? Does it bare any resemblence to our own individual searches for truth?for our home?..Here is a link to the fan page...Wendy and Richard Pini the 'creators' have been around since the 70's...ENJOY! http://www.elfquest.com/ check the gallery. The illustrations are beautiful and the symbols we all know so well are everywhere.

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by sky » Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:41 pm

Hi ALL...has anyone seen the 4400 series on the sci-fi channel? and what did everyone think about it (for those that did) ?

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by lvx08 » Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:50 pm

Raytheonsky wrote:Hi ALL...has anyone seen the 4400 series on the sci-fi channel? and what did everyone think about it (for those that did) ?
Yes I saw it, though unfortunately due to low ratings the tv station didnt show the complete series. I thought it had potential and some good ideas but it got really bogged down - I still would like to see how the series finished.

I liked Taken, which at times was pretty heavy with some very STS characters, it had a great story arc of abductees from Roswell thru to now.

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by BlueEagle » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:13 pm

Lately I have been sucked into B 5 by LoneBear and am quite enjoying it. The amount of symbols and motifs within such an entertaining format is fun. Also quite accurate.
B5 does that to you. I really like that it makes so many statements and has so many themes that are above individuals and simple wars. It isn't just Vorlons vs. Shadows, nor is it good vs. bad. It’s also order vs. chaos and group mind vs. individuals. (Vorlons and Shadows vs. the Interstellar Alliance.)
All of the symbols within specific presentations can be applied macro and micro cosmically. The trick of course, is to find something YOU are interested in.
Exactly. You can apply many parts of the story to your life specifically as well as to the human nature and our world.

I assume you have met Bester? Great example of STS. Wonderful character.

What is your favorite character so far?

It is amazing how well the idea of individualization fits the story. First of all, Sheridan, than the entire station, than Mars, other planets, and finally Earth.

You have so many good moments to come. Wonderful story.
As an example many of the stories that I relate well with, are:

Frank Herberts Dune
Babylon 5
Farscape
The Matrix
Stargate SG1 (Although I have not watched very much of it, the symbols are there)
Attilas Sword
Virtues of War (great fiction book written to be historically accurate on Alexander the Great)
Ahh...good list.

Here is part of mine;

Pawn of Prophesy (Great hero story)
LOTR (another hero story)
Harry Potter (and another one)
Stainless Steel Rat (and one more)
Ring World (sci-fi)
SG1

What symbols/themes did you find in Farscape?

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by sky » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:53 am

Here's some more.... the Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, the 5th Element (love is what saves us in the end) and for all of us who grew up in the 70's , does anyone remember the Land of the Lost? the reptilian sleestaks had both good and bad on their team...I remember one elder Sleestak (enik) trying to help Marshall, Will and Holly try to get back home by rearranging the crystals in the pyramid! The original tv series Star Trek is still my all time favorite and was one of the first shows along with the Twilight Zone, that I watched at a very early age. Captain James T. Kirk being my first love, and Spock wasn't two bad either...although I still think Capt. Picard is a hottie! Love that accent... :lol:

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by Starlight* » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:07 pm

Hi!

Star Trek, I am a fan of Star Trek. Still watch those re-runs of Twilight Zone and Outer Limits.

Ivory are you watching those video tapes? Babylon 5 is not being showed on cable. Hopefully, there will be re-runs soon.

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by Tulan » Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:54 am

Hehe, my favorite character is by far G'kar. Vir is good comic relief. Kosh was pretty cool tho too, I dunno, ALL of the characters are really cool.

Yes I am watching them on DVD. I have plenty of more material to catch up on!

Farscape holds alot of very interesting symbols, you have the basic motif's that Babylon 5 represents, there are also references to Ancients, alot of symbols, I have to rewatch the series as I have forgotten most of it.
Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song. - Kosh Naranek

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by LoneBear » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:16 pm

Since Ivory went and watched Season 5 of Babylon 5 while I was away at Thanksgiving, I had to pull the DVDs out one last time while HE's not here... I had forgotten how much G'kar loved being Londo's bodyguard on Centauri prime. Ran across this rather interesting tidbit from my favorite religious leader, G'kar, who is confronting the Centauri Minister and Guard that tortured him in a previous season:

G'kar: If I were to strike you... which would you be mad at, the hand that struck you, or the heart that commanded the hand to strike?
Minister: Well, the heart, of course.
G'kar: The hand has no choice but to do as it is told. It is the heart that carries the burden.
... Besides, everyone knows that the true source of pain is neither the hand, nor the heart -- it is the mouth.

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Great Mysteries of the Universe

Post by LoneBear » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:47 pm

The Narn always have some interesting commentary on the Universe... G'Kar and Captain Na'Kal having dinner in G'kars quarters on Babylon 5:

Na'Kal: Breen? You've managed to import breen from homeworld? How?

G'Kar: It... isn't actually breen.

Na'Kal: But the smell, the taste...

G'Kar: It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs. I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries, which will either never get explained, or which will drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

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G'kar passed away

Post by LoneBear » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:06 am

Andreas Katsulas, known for his fiesty character of G'kar on Babylon 5, died on February 13, 2006 at the age of 59. I guess that ends an era.

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by Tulan » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:33 am

Yeah I heard about it a couple of days after, he died in LA. Too bad, that guy was one hell of an actor. G'kar was such an awesome character (which characters arn't in B5? lol).
Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song. - Kosh Naranek

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Legend of the Rangers

Post by LoneBear » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:07 am

The B5 movie, "Legend of the Rangers" is now out on DVD. Not as good as the original series, but G'kar is in it, having returned from his excursion into the galaxy with Lyta.

An the Minbari first officer's name is "Dulann", not "Tulan", though it sounded mighty close when I first heard it!

It appears to be another attempt to do a follow-up series to B5 (like Crusade), but lacks the strong personalities of B5 and is back to that "rebel teenager" motif that is so common these days. Definitely lacks the mystic quality the original Rangers had in B5, and treats them more along the lines of military grunts out to buck the system.

Amusing, nonetheless.

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by Gopi » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:22 pm

In another thread, LoneBear wrote:One of the things I loved about the Babylon 5 series is this very situation: the "hope" side represented by the angelic Vorlons, and the "fear" side by the Shadows. Both played against the other as yin-yang, with the sole purpose being "movement", the evolution of consciousness. Unfortunately, these guides lost their way and ended up in a competition to see who could evolve species the fastest and most effectively... competition took over, and evolution suffered.
There is a third active agent here, Michael Straczynski. Either the guides lost the way, or Michael lost the meaning of the climax, because it was beyond him, or because it was just too much.
LoneBear wrote:The proposed solution was interesting: all the different species finally got together and decided to, once and for all, throw out their gods (the First Ones), angels (Vorlons) and demons (Shadows), and let everyone determine their own path, without these constant influences obscuring the greater picture. And the end result of that was an Alliance of all species and races, working together, in peace, to see what "life," not just mankind, could accomplish.
As I was discussing the other day... that climax appeared to show all the signs of an anticlimax. And if we follow out those principles in the series, where everything progresses wonderfully up until the meeting with the Vorlons, Shadows and the First Ones, the solution is actually anything but. By removing the Vorlon/Shadow dichotomy, an archetypal dichotomy is removed, hence EVERY dichotomy has to be removed. As Sheridan and Delenn bid the guides to go, and leave them alone, they themselves would have lost their gender, united into a single body, then disintegrated into light, as all positive and negative charges, all polarities, are wished away in one go. The solution proposed by the series was no solution at all... it is like taking away the pedals of a bicycle because using either one exclusively tipped one over. If there is something like a solution, it is to put a new principle, which harmonizes the two sides, rather than one which eliminates the two sides.

Looking at why there was a "miscarriage" in the series at this point, as the subsequent part of the series showed, the only feeling I had to go on with was a 'charge' that Michael encountered that said, to use a common phrase: "shit just got real, too real... abort!" It got me wondering that science fiction, as a series, can continue itself only if it continues to be fiction, and anything that helps it transition over from there to real life will have a lot of opposition. At the end of the day, it can influence daily life, but not provide a philosophical or spiritual basis for real action... then it can sustain its 'fiction-ness'. Truth is stranger than fiction after all.

While investigating it from the side of Indian mythology, it was the incarnation of a God that was hinted at. That was when it hit me... "Avatar"! The Avatars form a concept that miscarried elsewhere in a different series, in Charmed. The two series, drawing as they were from real psychic phenomena, perceived a common reality, and it freaked them both out. Now in Indian mythos, up until Krishna, the Avatars of the gods only accessed man up until his prana-body, etheric, or cosmic sector. The physical body was not accessed, and retained a weakness.

When you pursue the thread further down, it clicks together... a concept which is causing an allergic reaction among sci-fiction writers from the West, a concept tied in with Incarnation of a God in the East, and the place where the two meet, the first Avatar of a god in the physical body as well... the Christ. That is where the Path of Kheb leads, and in a weird counterpoint to today's catholic obsessed fanaticism and equally rigid atheism, mentioning Christ immediately links it to traditional Christianity causing an allergy, almost a heresy, to introduce that into a Sci-Fi series. Different series approached it from different sides, and abandoned it as soon as they perceived the consequences of actually getting to it. They each got half a piece, one part got the Avatar right, another got the dichotomy relations right, and also the concept of reincarnation (Minbari) never addressed by any other Sci-fi series.

It is by understanding the Christ principle, in addition to the Vorlon and Shadows, that a proper harmonia can be approached, and it is only natural that it would meet a great amount of hesitation and opposition from all sides.
It is time.

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by LoneBear » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:44 pm

Gopi wrote:There is a third active agent here, Michael Straczynski. Either the guides lost the way, or Michael lost the meaning of the climax, because it was beyond him, or because it was just too much.
I've noticed that, too. He does a great job getting you all the way up to the "final conflict" in season 4, then does not really know what to do and the series basically drops the ball at that point, going to that line of corrupt government stories. Though the whole G'kar/Londo thing continued to play out well.
Gopi wrote:As Sheridan and Delenn bid the guides to go, and leave them alone, they themselves would have lost their gender, united into a single body, then disintegrated into light, as all positive and negative charges, all polarities, are wished away in one go.
That would be the typical "alchemical" resolution, where the opposites unite into the androgyne--not necessarily because the archetypal dichotomy was removed, but because the process of individuation outgrew the need for it. Strazynsky hinted at that a bit in the last episode of Season 4, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars," where the final scene shows that man had advanced to the level of the Vorlons in the far future.

I find that Sci-Fi, in general, tends to pick up future trends of the collective unconscious. This "bidding to go" may be more of a statement of the geopolitical situation, where people just want all the political control freaks out of their lives--to be left alone to mature on their own. The situation is similar, and original "good idea" (Vorlons/Shadows or governments/religions) became corrupted by self interest, and destructive to the very ideas they were trying to construct.
Gopi wrote:It got me wondering that science fiction, as a series, can continue itself only if it continues to be fiction, and anything that helps it transition over from there to real life will have a lot of opposition. At the end of the day, it can influence daily life, but not provide a philosophical or spiritual basis for real action... then it can sustain its 'fiction-ness'. Truth is stranger than fiction after all.
Personally, I don't think Sci-Fi even exists anymore, as the few films I've watched recently (including the new Star Trek and Doctor Who) is nothing more than action/adventure--lots of explosions, running and yelling. It is difficult to even FIND a plot line, let alone any character development or moral to the story.
Gopi wrote:the Avatars of the gods only accessed man up until his prana-body, etheric, or cosmic sector. The physical body was not accessed, and retained a weakness.
I was not aware of that. Would these Avatars have a cosmic "body," being nonlocalized in space as some kind of collective influence?
Gopi wrote:the first Avatar of a god in the physical body as well... the Christ. That is where the Path of Kheb leads, and in a weird counterpoint to today's catholic obsessed fanaticism and equally rigid atheism, mentioning Christ immediately links it to traditional Christianity causing an allergy, almost a heresy, to introduce that into a Sci-Fi series.
I see where you are going with that, but actually Christ as Savior (versus Christ as christos, the anointed one), is probably one of the most popular Sci-Fi themes out there. Someone rises up above humanity, from kids playing video games to superheros, to "save" humanity. The predominant Biblical story regarding Christ is the same--he is here to save humanity from evil to clear the path to god.
Gopi wrote:It is by understanding the Christ principle, in addition to the Vorlon and Shadows, that a proper harmonia can be approached, and it is only natural that it would meet a great amount of hesitation and opposition from all sides.
Interestingly enough, G'kar and Londo probably came closest to that harmonia, starting off as mortal enemies, working through their differences, becoming friends, and their final act was one of self-sacrifice for a higher ideal.

I would be curious how you would resolve the Sheridan/Delenn choice, and the direction you would have taken the series past that point?

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by Gopi » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:16 am

LoneBear wrote:That would be the typical "alchemical" resolution, where the opposites unite into the androgyne--not necessarily because the archetypal dichotomy was removed, but because the process of individuation outgrew the need for it.
Yes, it could have been a resolution, but from what happened it appeared like a dissolution. Such as the result of matter and anti-matter meeting directly, instead of in an organized way to create life.
LoneBear wrote:Strazynsky hinted at that a bit in the last episode of Season 4, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars," where the final scene shows that man had advanced to the level of the Vorlons in the far future.
Precisely the point, he lost the "neutral" ground! We should ask, why did he perceive the evolution towards a Vorlon, and not towards the Shadows? Instead of stepping into a Kosh suit, why didn't one enter the Spidery system? The resolution of "leave us alone!" is actually what a Vorlon would have answered in that human stage of their development. Londo's deputy had the right answer to that question, from his heart's intuition: "A darkness carried in the heart can not be cured by moving the body from one place to another." Leaving one alone would not have mattered one bit.
LoneBear wrote: I was not aware of that. Would these Avatars have a cosmic "body," being nonlocalized in space as some kind of collective influence?
Yes, depending on their level of development, they are called cities or nations, or even "Spirits of the Age".
LoneBear wrote:I see where you are going with that, but actually Christ as Savior (versus Christ as christos, the anointed one), is probably one of the most popular Sci-Fi themes out there. Someone rises up above humanity, from kids playing video games to superheros, to "save" humanity. The predominant Biblical story regarding Christ is the same--he is here to save humanity from evil to clear the path to god.
Consider the amount of effort and descriptions given of the Vorlon and the Shadow nature in the show, starting from the "creepy feelings" or confused feelings, to a gradual development of the inner behaviour and questions, to a show of their real nature. It was not something that could have been said in a sentence. Contrast that with the almost total lack of any information of the Christ nature (there is a hint of it in the Arthurian Holy Grail episode), and you'll see that a full development, at least to that extent, is necessary before trying to resolve it.

The version of Christ as only the Divine savior... that is again a Vorlon interpretation of the same idea, while there is the Shadow version as well: "Christ was not divine or anything, just a nice human teacher at max, a bit stupid as he got himself killed". Both are misdirections, as Mathis loves to say. And most people are lazy thinkers, and are satisfied with oversimplified answers such as "oh, mass is just mass". Whatever doesn't take plowing uncomfortable depths is just right, and very box-able. And the questions come right up... and we must be able to ask them without these constant interferences and befuddlements of the "belief" system.

Save humanity... Why? What does "save" mean? From what or whom, and how? In freedom or in coercion? Was freedom also something that was developed, or was it something that just came in with a "big bang" one fine day? Anointed... why, and for what? How is this entire event different from the previous gods, and how is it the same? We nowadays use logic which was developed by the Christian scholastics, and Science and Maths developed by the monks (e.g. think of Brother Theo's tasks, Michael's intuition is fantastic sometimes!). Even Newton considered his theology work as being far more significant. Isn't an outright rejection of all that just shooting oneself in the foot? Isn't outright acceptance also a contradiction of the same logic and science?
LoneBear wrote:Interestingly enough, G'kar and Londo probably came closest to that harmonia, starting off as mortal enemies, working through their differences, becoming friends, and their final act was one of self-sacrifice for a higher ideal.
True, they resolved it from the heart (remember the heart attack?) Their dedicated devotion to their individual home planets was strong enough to help them through that, "my people" as they say.

It is the resolving with the intellect that is far trickier.
LoneBear wrote:I would be curious how you would resolve the Sheridan/Delenn choice, and the direction you would have taken the series past that point?
I would have to re-write the whole series, as the concepts are just not developed at all. If the Vorlons come in followed by the Shadows relatively early in the series, the resolution concept would have to be developed at least in the middle of it. At the very minimum, the First Ones would be introduced earlier, and Zathras given a far more significant role than the one given. Sheridan would have had to remain out of the military after resigning, and he would have had to have the Walkabout, as that plot line lost strength very quickly. Zathras came the closest to the Christ figure, along the lines of Saint John. It's a correlative update, the whole thing will change, not just the end.
It is time.

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by LoneBear » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:27 pm

Gopi wrote:Precisely the point, he lost the "neutral" ground! We should ask, why did he perceive the evolution towards a Vorlon, and not towards the Shadows?
I believe the inference was, since humanity evolved to that point without the Vorlon/Shadow dichotomy, that humanity "got it right" on the path of ascension. Did not need a dichotomy, and probably just marketing preference for Vorlon suit, as that would be associated more with "good" than a spider suit.
Gopi wrote:Londo's deputy had the right answer to that question, from his heart's intuition: "A darkness carried in the heart can not be cured by moving the body from one place to another." Leaving one alone would not have mattered one bit.
I believe that was Lennier talking to Vir about Londo. A philosophy of solitude has its place, particularly with introspection, which is why it has been practiced by many spiritual disciplines for centuries.
Gopi wrote:
LoneBear wrote: I was not aware of that. Would these Avatars have a cosmic "body," being nonlocalized in space as some kind of collective influence?
Yes, depending on their level of development, they are called cities or nations, or even "Spirits of the Age".
Interesting... and do these Avatars have an ethical consciousness?
Gopi wrote:Save humanity... Why? What does "save" mean? From what or whom, and how? In freedom or in coercion? Was freedom also something that was developed, or was it something that just came in with a "big bang" one fine day? Anointed... why, and for what? How is this entire event different from the previous gods, and how is it the same? We nowadays use logic which was developed by the Christian scholastics, and Science and Maths developed by the monks (e.g. think of Brother Theo's tasks, Michael's intuition is fantastic sometimes!). Even Newton considered his theology work as being far more significant. Isn't an outright rejection of all that just shooting oneself in the foot? Isn't outright acceptance also a contradiction of the same logic and science?
I'm not able to determine if you are looking for answers here, or it is just a rhetorical rant. Please clarify.
Gopi wrote:I would have to re-write the whole series, as the concepts are just not developed at all.
IMHO, the series did fine up until the middle of season 4, when they brought in the planet killers. At that point, it reached a maximum level of conflict that required a "winner/loser" situation, simply because it could no longer be escalated to bigger conflicts, as they tried to do in the "Ranger" film with "The Hand." I think the attempt at resolution was premature. When it became just stopping the Vorlons AND Shadows from destroying all the inhabited planets, well, in essence, Straczynski it a catharsis--blow it all up, and try again. I would have personally liked to have seen more development of the spiritual side of the Rangers, rather than just being an interplanetary police force, which could lead to an advancement of all the allied races, making the Vorlon and Shadow presence unnecessary, rather than "you have until sunset to get out of the galaxy."
Gopi wrote:If the Vorlons come in followed by the Shadows relatively early in the series, the resolution concept would have to be developed at least in the middle of it. At the very minimum, the First Ones would be introduced earlier, and Zathras given a far more significant role than the one given. Sheridan would have had to remain out of the military after resigning, and he would have had to have the Walkabout, as that plot line lost strength very quickly. Zathras came the closest to the Christ figure, along the lines of Saint John. It's a correlative update, the whole thing will change, not just the end.
I'm not seeing the connection between Christ and Zathras; Zathras was a minor, servant character that was introduced primarily for the Babylon 4 episodes. Granted, he had that "suicidal humility" attribute to his character, but I don't see how the other races would look to Zathras as a path to enlightenment.

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Re: Babylon 5

Post by Gopi » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:48 pm

LoneBear wrote: Did not need a dichotomy, and probably just marketing preference for Vorlon suit, as that would be associated more with "good" than a spider suit.
Evidently no fans of Spiderman in the writers' gang then! :)
LoneBear wrote:I believe that was Lennier talking to Vir about Londo. A philosophy of solitude has its place, particularly with introspection, which is why it has been practiced by many spiritual disciplines for centuries.
You're right, that was Lennier. And this instance was different from introspection as a decision regarding the action was needed, where the influences always work. Both Vorlons and Shadows were asking Humanity to join them. In the sphere of action, isolation has the opposite effect... one thinks for oneself as much as possible, and works with as many as possible.
LoneBear wrote:Interesting... and do these Avatars have an ethical consciousness?
They have ethics, but their consciousness resides at a higher level of development, so it takes some effort to understand. As an analogy, human beings breathe, but their self-consciousness resides more in the thinking faculty.
LoneBear wrote:I'm not able to determine if you are looking for answers here, or it is just a rhetorical rant. Please clarify.
I was identifying how one question leads over to an entire complex of questions, (remember Larson laying down all the questions, what is electricity, magnetism, heat, light... etc.) very few of which have received any examination in Science fiction. And of course, answers to many of them.
LoneBear wrote:I'm not seeing the connection between Christ and Zathras; Zathras was a minor, servant character that was introduced primarily for the Babylon 4 episodes. Granted, he had that "suicidal humility" attribute to his character, but I don't see how the other races would look to Zathras as a path to enlightenment.
I meant the proximity of Zathras, and not the direct connection. As Saint John the Baptist was a contemporary in charge of announcing the coming of Christ, Zathras was in charge of identifying "the One". And again, his character was not understood and hence not well-developed in the series, but it could have been. He still gives the most elegant description of the Trinity towards the middle, coincidentally, of season 3 in War Without End. After that the series develops a rupture.

The Christ figure himself is bypassed in the series, and distributed among Sinclair (becomes Minbari, the closest approximation to divine-spiritual community), Delenn (hybrid) and Sheridan (human). And due to the same bias that was present with respect to the Vorlons, the final decision is taken by only two of them, completely away from Sinclair/Valen. But the presence of the "One who Was" was vital to the story, hence we got the nearest approximation to that at the end: the First Ones.

In a significant series such as this one, I have found that the actor's real lives are no less involved in the whole story, and the story spills over a lot into real life. And Michael O'Hare who was playing Sinclair started getting schizophrenia as soon as the Babylon 5 series was started. That role had a powerful effect, especially when done in an incomplete way. Claudia Christian tipped into heavy alcoholism. Mira Furlan was deeply affected, but helped by her Croatian heritage, this stays positively in her emotions. Boxleitner, who is made to say dialogues like "Now get the hell out of our galaxy! Both of you!" is as unaffected as Shatner in real life. I find that telling.
It is time.

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