Shadow and its options

Discussion of Science Fiction motifs, symbols and allegory.
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Shadow and its options

Post by Gopi » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:29 am

One thing I noticed when I was watching "The Wizard of Oz"... is how the Wicked Witch of the West gives Dorothy an option, some time, for her to die... "These things must be done delicately" she says.

Then it seemed to be everywhere, in all the comics, fairy tales and myths: the "hero/heroine" is always given an option in terms of time. Usually this turns out in elaborate schemes to kill... increasing the water level slowly, heating/freezing up the place slowly, walking the plank slowly, compressing the space slowly, the hourglass trickling slowly...

At first it seemed that this was for dramatization, to enable the hero to make good the 'escape', but that didn't make much sense. If the villain is bent on destroying the hero, then there is no practical reason for this (as it happens so often in modern movies). The Shadow (villain) also WANTS the hero to acknowledge the other side, and make the free will decision to integrate the Shadow. The options are given by the villain accordingly, to enable the hero to see the problem clearly, and exercise the will.

Today's "mythology"... the TV and the cinema, messes many a time with this symbolic power, but the old ones still retain the message pretty well.
It is time.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Arcelius » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:40 am

Along the same lines, the hero is generally triumphant though the shadow is never fully vanquished (i.e. the hero does illuminate/integrate part of the shadow but there is more to the shadow than what is seen).

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by LoneBear » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:15 pm

There is also the sadistic desire for suffering on part of the tormentor. Slow and painful... and emotional pain tends to hurt more than the physical. You'll also notice the "you're going to die last" motif.

What else would one expect in a fear-based society, but to pray on fears? And what bigger fear is there than suffering? It's actually worse than death (ask Bharadwaj, whom relieved his suffering by death).

Saw an interesting couple episodes of Torchwood last night (the Dr. Who spin-off), where one of the main characters, Owen, was killed, resurrected through alien technology--only supposed to work for a couple minutes--got possessed by the Archetype of Death, defeated Death, and is now stuck in an undead state, unable to either live or die.

A curious counterpoise to Captain Harkness, another main character, whom is stuck in life--cannot die.

When you're already dead, you can't kill yourself to escape. Tough to deal with, particularly since you cannot heal, either, and bits that get damaged or removed stay that way, while you remain fully conscious.

Very thought-provoking episodes.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Alluvion » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:51 am

The position that suffering is worth than death is certainly where I am at along my Walk - I see death as the end of that suffering, and I hope it is.

But also consider that (as per the LoO material) - emotional/intelligent suffering is catalytic opportunity from higher densities.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by LoneBear » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:59 pm

Alluvion wrote:The position that suffering is worth than death is certainly where I am at along my Walk - I see death as the end of that suffering, and I hope it is.
Death doesn't stop suffering, because you take it all with you and recreate it on the other side--and it's usually worse.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Alluvion » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:54 pm

I'm not ok with all the timeless suffering that I expect to be going on then. I may not be incredibly intelligent yet but the more I know the more desperate I feel that there are those dying who are trapped in the proverbial knots of fear. It would be truly noble work to aid an entity in its own salvation, however, it certainly seems like those before us who've reached back out of compassion haven't found a muck-free way to do it.

Really creates conflict for me.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by LoneBear » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:41 pm

Alluvion wrote:I'm not ok with all the timeless suffering that I expect to be going on then. I may not be incredibly intelligent yet but the more I know the more desperate I feel that there are those dying who are trapped in the proverbial knots of fear.
Sometimes people need to run their boats up on the rocks a few times, before they realize what the lighthouse is for.

Dying isn't an "end", it's just a "change." Like putting on some new clothes after yours get all dirty and ripped up. And guess what... those new clothes will get pretty worn and tattered after a time, too, and you'll change them again.

Of course, we all know it's completely YOUR fault that all these people are caught up in the knots of fear. Why you would do such a horrible thing, I'll never understand. Or, could it be, perhaps... "misplaced guilt?" Say "hi" to your parents for me.
Alluvion wrote:It would be truly noble work to aid an entity in its own salvation, however, it certainly seems like those before us who've reached back out of compassion haven't found a muck-free way to do it.
The ONLY thing that I have found works consistently, is to openly share your own path and let others decide if they want to hear about what a lighthouse does from you, or go find out, first hand, for themselves.

You can "think it", or you can "feel it." Always YOUR choice.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Alluvion » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:52 pm

If you can wander through serving others and serving yourself, why in the heck can't you wander through thinking it and feeling it?

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by LoneBear » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:26 pm

Alluvion wrote:If you can wander through serving others and serving yourself, why in the heck can't you wander through thinking it and feeling it?
I think I feel what you are saying. Or do I feel I think it?

It is a matter of insides (think) and outsides (feel)--where you choose to examine it. In order for consciousness to examine something, it must be in the self-other perspective, and the location of 'other' (in your unconscious or projected onto someone else) determines how you deal with it.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Alluvion » Fri May 01, 2009 10:51 am

so you only think (ie, utilize interior projection) and never feel?

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by LoneBear » Sun May 03, 2009 1:41 am

Alluvion wrote:so you only think (ie, utilize interior projection) and never feel?
I use a balance between the two, since they flip around (insides become outsides and vice versa) when you move to the other realm. One must be able to interpret both sides of the coin on demand.

Though I prefer to reason out a problem, rather than have an anvil dropped on my head in order to get my attention.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Alluvion » Sun May 03, 2009 9:22 am

material sector - thinking (logical interior projection), feeling (irrational exterior projection)
cosmic sector - thinking (irrational interior projection),feeling (logical exterior projection)

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by LoneBear » Sun May 03, 2009 3:28 pm

Alluvion wrote:material sector - thinking (logical interior projection), feeling (irrational exterior projection)
cosmic sector - thinking (irrational interior projection),feeling (logical exterior projection)
Thinking and feeling are BOTH rational valuing systems. Sensation (space) and Intuition (time) are the irrational values.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Starlight* » Mon May 04, 2009 12:50 pm

LoneBear wrote:
Alluvion wrote::
material sector - thinking (logical interior projection), feeling (irrational exterior projection)
cosmic sector - thinking (irrational interior projection),feeling (logical exterior projection)
Thinking and feeling are BOTH rational valuing systems. Sensation (space) and Intuition (time) are the irrational values.
Expanding on it:

Sensation (space) and Intuition (time) are the irrational values;
Sensuous intuition, lower spiritual values.

Intuition (time) and Sensation (space) are rational values;
Intellectual intuition, the higher spiritual values.

Truth is the logical reasoning.

thoughts come to mind : as it is above, so is below; space and time,
time and space are in accordance with one's truth. As Bruce stated, "One must be able to interpret both sides of the coin on demand."


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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by snetu » Tue May 26, 2009 10:00 pm

I had another question about shadows.... Does people not dealing with their shadows affects only themselves or do they affect others too? Is it something like if a person keeps pushing away the shadow saying it bad ,its bad, does that effect all other humans too via group mind or SMC?

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by polonious21 » Wed May 27, 2009 9:11 am

snetu wrote:I had another question about shadows.... Does people not dealing with their shadows affects only themselves or do they affect others too? Is it something like if a person keeps pushing away the shadow saying it bad ,its bad, does that effect all other humans too via group mind or SMC?
I've found that a person's shadow really does affect others. No matter how far you push it into a corner it is still part of your soul, your energy. For a person like me, when I reach out to you it feels like a weight. I think it is always best to "deal" with your shadow, it contains much knowledge even though that will come with pain and suffering. W are all connected one one another. The idea of spiritual individuality and separatism is a joke. Yes we are unique but we are all part of a greater whole. When someone is suffering on the other side of the world or the other side of the universe it affects all of us and we are less because of it. But if someone gains wisdom, likewise all of creation gains.
People are good at pushing things aside, hiding hard questions and hoping they'll disappear but they won't. They get so good at it they eventually start believing those things are actually gone but they aren't. You either live with your head in the sand or stand ready to confront what is around you. One road is easier but less fulfilling, the other is more difficult and more fulfilling. I don't really blame people for either.
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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by snetu » Thu May 28, 2009 8:04 pm

Thanks for the reply!

I've found that a person's shadow really does affect others. No matter how far you push it into a corner it is still part of your soul, your energy. For a person like me, when I reach out to you it feels like a weight.

So, say I have this particular shadow part o me which i dislike and pushing away a lot..will that effect other people to take take actions? I mean to say if the person is not very strong willed will it effect them to a large extent?

I think it is always best to "deal" with your shadow, it contains much knowledge even though that will come with pain and suffering.

How exactly does one 'deal' with a shadow?

People are good at pushing things aside, hiding hard questions and hoping they'll disappear but they won't. They get so good at it they eventually start believing those things are actually gone but they aren't. You either live with your head in the sand or stand ready to confront what is around you. One road is easier but less fulfilling, the other is more difficult and more fulfilling. I don't really blame people for either.[/quote]

I know the difficult one is better as move forward... but the fear to go ahead is a big barrier...but have to choose onething...

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by snetu » Thu May 28, 2009 8:42 pm

Opps! the quote thing did not really work well and your sentences that I was trying to quote came as my sentences! sorry..

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by snetu » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:12 pm

I was trying to understand...what does "dealing" with the shadow exactly mean and how does one integrate it.... is accepting that the "bad" or not so appreciated thought/feeling a part of you dealing with the shadow or is it more than just accepting it?

I mean when does one know that a certain part of the shadow has been dealt with and integrated? something like say if something in someone else was annoying me too much and now, it doesn't and I am fine with that person the way she is, means the shadow aspect I used to see in that person has been integrated inside me?

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by LoneBear » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:00 am

snetu wrote:I was trying to understand...what does "dealing" with the shadow exactly mean and how does one integrate it.... is accepting that the "bad" or not so appreciated thought/feeling a part of you dealing with the shadow or is it more than just accepting it?
The shadow contains the repressed contents of the psyche--all that stuff that you don't want to deal with consciously. You don't really "deal" with it, as much as "accept" it and let that content back into the light of consciousness.

Psychic content has both energy and intelligence. That is why we see it in dreams as other people. It also has emotion, which is why some of those dream people are rather angry--they don't appreciate being locked up in the back of the mind, not able to experience life.

"Good" and "bad" are basically concepts of the ego-self, that help in keeping us alive.

Good = I get what I want.
Bad = I don't get what I want.

The shadow is neither good nor bad; it just IS. What has to be done is to let it out of prison, and go through a forgiveness process.
snetu wrote:I mean when does one know that a certain part of the shadow has been dealt with and integrated? something like say if something in someone else was annoying me too much and now, it doesn't and I am fine with that person the way she is, means the shadow aspect I used to see in that person has been integrated inside me?
That's projection of the shadow onto someone else. And it works BOTH ways--hope/fear, anger/happy, love/hate.

You've "dealt" with it when it no longer has unconscious influence over the choices you make. In other words, you start "doing the right thing, for the RIGHT reason," so the work is NOT corrupted.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Arcelius » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:01 pm

I just noticed that this topic doesn't refer to Jung (student of Freud). Jungian Psychology deals a lot with the shadow and archetypes. If you are interested in it, you may find more material through Jungian Psychology. At the same time, it is one thing know a lot about the shadow and something else to personally dealt with one's own. In many matters, it is best not to force things.

I tend to have a personal bias towards practical experience. I had a Math/CS prof once say: "You think you know. But you do not know. Once you actually do it, then you know."

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by Alluvion » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:25 pm

As for the shadow-character offering a choice to the protagonist, I've come to see that not as an 'integration of the shadow', but as the function of the shadow-personality itself. We can choose (accept/reject) or not-choose (ignore) and the shadow-personality is the repository of the ignore category. The unconscious has access to the shadow as well. The choice-contents held there are the only things that can be integrated, the so called shadow-personality remains and can be emptied and honored when it is unburded of so much willful non-choice (ignorance).

I'm learning to have a less fearful and more loving relationship with my shadow. The respectable thing to do is grow up and honor his tolerances. I've found when I'm really acting terribly, he'll gang up with my anima, whose at that point properly offended, and really fuck me over to get my attention. I've been attending a 12-step which focuses on emotional sobriety for about 6 months and this has helped more than anything I've ever experienced.

So the shadow needs sone breathing room and will only let you hide out for so long before he calls in your bullshit and kicks you in the ass.

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Re: Shadow and its options

Post by snetu » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:19 pm

LoneBear wrote:
snetu wrote:I was trying to understand...what does "dealing" with the shadow exactly mean and how does one integrate it.... is accepting that the "bad" or not so appreciated thought/feeling a part of you dealing with the shadow or is it more than just accepting it?
The shadow contains the repressed contents of the psyche--all that stuff that you don't want to deal with consciously. You don't really "deal" with it, as much as "accept" it and let that content back into the light of consciousness.

you mean to say, like example I had an issue with someone's laziness and her lack of responsibility, to an extent that I hated it...so now, after I have "accepted" it as a part of myself, then it would not have any issues or feelings of hatred towards that characteristic in that person?

The shadow is neither good nor bad; it just IS. What has to be done is to let it out of prison, and go through a forgiveness process.
snetu wrote:I mean when does one know that a certain part of the shadow has been dealt with and integrated? something like say if something in someone else was annoying me too much and now, it doesn't and I am fine with that person the way she is, means the shadow aspect I used to see in that person has been integrated inside me?
That's projection of the shadow onto someone else. And it works BOTH ways--hope/fear, anger/happy, love/hate.

You've "dealt" with it when it no longer has unconscious influence over the choices you make. In other words, you start "doing the right thing, for the RIGHT reason," so the work is NOT corrupted.
unconscious influence over choices as in? like if we choose not to do something, we will know consciously know why not to do it and not just as a rule?

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