Some things I've learned from past attempts

Kheb is a monastery, remote but not secluded, where people can have an alternative to the mercantile system that is imposed upon society by our political and educational institutions. It is a physical PLACE, and this topic is to discuss the facilities, structures, accommodations, and other physical constructs needed to successfully implement the ideas behind the Sanctuary Project, as well as the "political" structures of a new type of monastic system.
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LoneBear
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Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by LoneBear » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:32 pm

Thought I'd document some of the lessons I've learned from my attempts to create a Sanctuary over the years...
  1. YOU CAN'T DO IT BY YOURSELF!!! It would be nice, but it is quite hard to carry both ends of a log at the same time. I've tried! I have found that effective work increases exponentially with the number of people. "1" to any power is still 1. Two people working together get a LOT more done than two people working on their own, but a noticeable amount. The best you can achieve by yourself is survival.
  2. The faster someone commits to the project, the faster they give up on it.
  3. If someone needs to be constantly told what to do, the only thing you should tell them to do is leave. (Sanctuary is not a collective with worker bees; it is a coordinated, free will effort).
  4. Quality is more desirable than Quantity. One expert is worth more than 100 "wanna-be's"; the latter tend to do more damage than good. If someone lacks the expertise, then they should get the necessary training ahead of time.
  5. Few people honor the commitments they make. They can get all gung-ho when talking, but when push comes to shove and it's time to do the work, they tend to shove off.
  6. Wanderers love work. They can sit and watch it for hours.
  7. No one person or family can own the place. I am not in favor of communal ownership. I was thinking along the lines of a Pure Trust, an artificial entity to hold and manage assets.
  8. Sanctuary is a devotion, not something you do on Sunday afternoons. For those who want to be the founders, they should expect to commit time, money and effort to the project.
  9. Anyone who has made a commitment to the project, and decides it isn't for them and desires to leave, should leave with at least the same money and resources they entered with, so they can either return to their prior life at the point of departure, or have the resources to start fresh.
  10. One-shot deal; no "bouncers" (people who constantly leave and return to a project). Like the old Pythagorean schools, if you leave, you can't come back. A commitment of this nature needs to be a knowing, intelligent act that has been well researched and thought out. Knowing that it is a one-shot deal makes one consider their options more carefully.
  11. People must have reached "Tier 2" valuing (at least yellow; preferably turquoise or higher).
  12. No "recruiting" or "conversion" (per Tier 1 valuing, such as religions do).
  13. "Love" ISN'T the answer. Nor the question.
  14. You need to have faith in the Universe. But tie up your camel.
  15. A statement of intent and a "constitution" need to be drafted, reviewed and signed by all those involved, so there is no question as to the intention or execution of the ideas behind the Sanctuary project.
  16. It is in the nature of the human animal to desire a "role" (a title or position). People need to know how they fit in.There needs to be a system to define and grant "roles". In the prior attempts, it either didn't exist (thinking not to "label" anyone), or I usually got stuck with the job! I would think a quorum of Elders would be more appropriate. Though I did come up with some interesting titles, for example, "The Imperial Grand High Exalted Mystic Poobah" for a young man in Starfleet, who was feeling a bit left out.
  17. Everyone needs their privacy and a place to call their own. Particularly as the psi skills advance, since the near presence of others can be highly disruptive. People (individuals or families) should have a place to call their own.
  18. There comes a time when a person is no longer able to physically contribute to a project, yet the mind and non-physical skills stay viable for decades. At that time, all their physical needs should be provided for (like the Aztecs did for someone reaching their 52nd year, but not dependent upon government programs), and they should be kept around as a teacher and adviser, not cast out into retirement homes as modern society does. (I learned a tremendous amount from my grandparents, and used their experiences to avoid many pitfalls in my life. I consider the "elderly"--the "Elder-ly"--to be a valuable resource).
  19. You can only teach those who are willing to learn. You cannot accept a student because their parents want you to make something of them, for them.
  20. ACTIVE PARTICIPATION is a must. No "Lurkers"... everyone has an opinion, and trouble starts when those opinions are NOT voiced on a regular basis.
  21. As a corollary to "active participation", I have discovered that it is a principle of magick that people who regularly share their thoughts with friends tend to develop very strong telepathic and empathic skills--even if they have never met, face-to-face. The paths of communication form a "pattern", to which the ultimate expression is the Social Memory Complex. If you want to participate, then you NEED to participate by stating your views and opinions regularly.
  22. Metaphysics is not a bureaucracy, so you don't need to go through Channels.
They say you learn from mistakes, and I've made thousands, so I'm sure there are a lot more lessons that I can document. But I guess once you've made all the mistakes, the only path left is the correct one!

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Gopi » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:54 pm

LoneBear wrote:No one person or family can own the place. I am not in favor of communal ownership. I was thinking along the lines of a Pure Trust, an artificial entity to hold and manage assets.
Where the artificial entity is Mother Earth?
It is time.

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by cointreau » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:01 pm

Excellent info Bruce, thank you!. Learning from previous mistakes is wisdom. Now we need that cow and then see who is willing to jump on the boat.

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by deepfsh » Sun May 11, 2014 3:43 pm

LoneBear wrote:The faster someone commits to the project, the faster they give up on it. :!:
LoneBear wrote:If someone needs to be constantly told what to do, the only thing you should tell them to do is leave.
If someone lacks the expertise, then they should get the necessary training ahead of time. :!:

That's why I've also been looking for basic educational material about construction etc., since I don't have any substantial experience at it. I bought When Technology Fails as a starting point years ago - the author was invited to speak at one of the Project Camelot-related conferences. His presentation and Sepp Holtzer's lecture on permaculture made me realize at least that I know a bull about nature and basic survival.
LoneBear wrote:Few people honor the commitments they make. They can get all gung-ho when talking, but when push comes to shove and it's time to do the work, they tend to shove off. :!:
When I was living in a very big apartment with around fourteen other people, it was hard for almost all the boys to stick to the (group) cleaning schedule, and they were barely able to clean after themselves when they were using the kitchen or the bathroom (not to mention the mess in their own bedrooms - but that's a private thing anyway). After I left the apartment and came back to the capital for one night for business purposes, one of my dear flatmates told me: "Deep, after you left it's a total mess, we don't care anymore." Yeah, I noticed it... that's why I told to myself not to live with (many) other people anymore, if it's possible. Preferably, I would like to have the kitchen and the bathroom/toilet within my own private premises.
LoneBear wrote:No one person or family can own the place. I am not in favor of communal ownership. I was thinking along the lines of a Pure Trust, an artificial entity to hold and manage assets.
Interesting. Can you make a short explanation? Have you ever tried it, does it work?
LoneBear wrote:Sanctuary is a devotion, not something you do on Sunday afternoons. For those who want to be the founders, they should expect to commit time, money and effort to the project.
A commitment of this nature needs to be a knowing, intelligent act that has been well researched and thought out. Knowing that it is a one-shot deal makes one consider their options more carefully. :!:
This can be quite tricky for young people, since we tend to be foolish. Maybe it would be a good idea if I print out this statement or write it down.
LoneBear wrote:People must have reached "Tier 2" valuing (at least yellow; preferably turquoise or higher). :!:
Damn, where's that color chart, let me read it again... :D
LoneBear wrote:You need to have faith in the Universe. But tie up your camel. :!:
LoneBear wrote:A statement of intent and a "constitution" need to be drafted, reviewed and signed by all those involved, so there is no question as to the intention or execution of the ideas behind the Sanctuary project.
LoneBear wrote:It is in the nature of the human animal to desire a "role" (a title or position). People need to know how they fit in. There needs to be a system to define and grant "roles".
Another issue. It's my intention to learn at least the basics of farming, construction etc., so I can see how I could fit in more easily. I'm a very good "worker", but I lack knowledge in the above-mentioned fields.
LoneBear wrote:There comes a time when a person is no longer able to physically contribute to a project, yet the mind and non-physical skills stay viable for decades. At that time, all their physical needs should be provided for (like the Aztecs did for someone reaching their 52nd year, but not dependent upon government programs), and they should be kept around as a teacher and adviser, not cast out into retirement homes as modern society does.
Sounds very reasonable to me.
LoneBear wrote:You can only teach those who are willing to learn. :!:
LoneBear wrote:ACTIVE PARTICIPATION is a must. No "Lurkers"... everyone has an opinion, and trouble starts when those opinions are NOT voiced on a regular basis. :!:
LoneBear wrote:As a corollary to "active participation", I have discovered that it is a principle of magick that people who regularly share their thoughts with friends tend to develop very strong telepathic and empathic skills--even if they have never met, face-to-face. The paths of communication form a "pattern", to which the ultimate expression is the Social Memory Complex. If you want to participate, then you NEED to participate by stating your views and opinions regularly. :!:
"You talk the talk ... do you walk the walk?" Kubrick, Full Metal Jacket

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by -OM- » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:17 am

One-shot deal; no "bouncers" (people who constantly leave and return to a project). Like the old Pythagorean schools, if you leave, you can't come back. A commitment of this nature needs to be a knowing, intelligent act that has been well researched and thought out. Knowing that it is a one-shot deal makes one consider their options more carefully.
A One-shot deal is an unreasonable number unless you plan on allowing people to "visit" for 2-3 weeks periods of "getting a taste."
Honestly, as you may already know, the concepts in such a community are so radically foreign to everyone's sensibilities, their usual reaction(at least to some parts of their psyche) is to run away in terror.

One can read about it and conceptualize it, but living it is a completely different reality that only 1 in 10,000,000 people have experienced.
95%+ of the people, who are even willing to participate in this, WILL LEAVE at least once.
And the vast majority of them won't even WANT to come back.

However, there will be a very small percentage, who will come back with FULL knowledge and understanding of what they are getting themselves into.

As you said, one can not have a KNOWING of anything until they have subjectively experienced it...
Says Who?
Why should anyone believe them?
Where's their proof?
What have they said in the past that one can verify as accurate?
What is the temporal process, In Detail, needed so that I or another can subjectively experience and recreate what is claimed?

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by -OM- » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:29 am

People must have reached "Tier 2" valuing (at least yellow; preferably turquoise or higher).
Not sure what "test" you are going to use to qualify people as "Tier 2" but..

A) Lines of Development - Many people who are going to be the most interesting in joining such a place are going to have various lines of development, meaning some aspects of them will be Tier2 and many other aspects of that person will be Tier1.

It's my observation that anyone that has Tier2 in all or a majority of their lines of development will be just as inclined to start their own community, live alone or with a handful of like-minded individuals and don't need a "formal" setting

Which leaves a considerable percentage of those wanting to be in a Kheb situation (or who could benefit the most from it) as people on the border of Tier1 and Tier2 and/or those with some aspects of each tier

which leads me to this....
"Love" ISN'T the answer. Nor the question.
Just because most of the world incorrectly uses the word "Love", doesn't mean the word's true meaning isn't correct.
Seems more beneficial (if more time-consuming) to correct people's using the word in the wrong context.

If you want to say "Love" is ethical rapport, then say that...
Since all language is inherently "false", describing what love is NOT, may be more beneficial and less time consuming.
But claiming "love" is a misnomer seems lazy or unethical.

Similar to how original Buddhist doctrine prohibited those monks who had not subjectively experienced "Unity Consciousness" from using the word, "God"
So, as not to be confused with the anthropomorphic concepts that naturally emerge from the collective unconscious both from our SM "creators" and Tier1's natural tendency to anthropomorph-ize things anyways.
(which has morphed with history and ignorance, like the word "love", into people thinking buddhists don't believe in "god" or that the Buddha is their "god")

Yet anyone who is truly "Tier2" is going to understand the "meaning" of the word, "love" ,in its correct context anyways, in my opinion.

Call it "Ethical Love" if you like.
Says Who?
Why should anyone believe them?
Where's their proof?
What have they said in the past that one can verify as accurate?
What is the temporal process, In Detail, needed so that I or another can subjectively experience and recreate what is claimed?

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Ilkka » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:48 pm

-OM- wrote:One can read about it and conceptualize it, but living it is a completely different reality that only 1 in 10,000,000 people have experienced.
95%+ of the people, who are even willing to participate in this, WILL LEAVE at least once.
And the vast majority of them won't even WANT to come back.

However, there will be a very small percentage, who will come back with FULL knowledge and understanding of what they are getting themselves into.

As you said, one can not have a KNOWING of anything until they have subjectively experienced it...
I might disagree about leaving part. If one is in total understanding of the place where one is about to go to live the remainder of ones days then there is no leaving, because there will be no need to leave anywhere from there. Maybe the people could take a "vacation" from the sanctuary every now and then just to get reminder about the rest of the world or see some of their potential loved ones and family members etc.

I also agree about the difference between theory and practice, I for one cant live in the wilderness with just theoretical knowledge of survival techniques just like that, but with practice it becomes more familiar and doable. It requires certain state of mind, this conviction. This is what I think about it also in my current state of mind I wouldn't be ready to leave my current place of residence now. Just switch state of mind and make the conviction to live in that sort of place for the rest of the days. Some might think it is impossible, but they are only limiting themselves to think that way.
Enjoy the Silence

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by LoneBear » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:46 am

-OM- wrote:One can read about it and conceptualize it, but living it is a completely different reality that only 1 in 10,000,000 people have experienced.
95%+ of the people, who are even willing to participate in this, WILL LEAVE at least once.
And the vast majority of them won't even WANT to come back.
That's my point here that Pythagoras tried to address with his schools. Such people should never have joined the community to begin with, as it is nothing more than a waste of their time, as well as the dedicated people and resources of the community.

What I have found in the past is that people join on an impulse, expecting to be "entertained." And when they are not, they leave. Given that communities have limited resources, the presence of these "bouncers" are denying a place to those that would really benefit from the experience, as well as the potential contributions they would make.

People are trained by "marketing" to make impulsive choices, so they spend their money on all sorts of junk that they never knew existed, but now cannot live without. They get it home and it goes on the shelf, never to be used but once--on the net profit line of the company that made it. If you study the layout of stores, they are arranged to sell you stuff that you did not go there to purchase, right down to the location of essentials (milk, bread, etc, usually at the back of the store so you have to walk through all the aisles), down to the junk at the checkout counters.

Life decisions, particularly where others are directly involved like a monastery, should not be made on impulse, but as a pro-active, well-considered, knowing and conscious choice. Pythagoras discovered that the "one-shot deal" made people "think twice"--the first thought is impulsive and the second, is considered.

If you read some of the really old posts here, you will find that it has always been my policy that "quality is better than quantity." I've never advertised Antiquatis, nor recruited for membership. I figure that if someone is led to this forum and joins, they were supposed to find it and join. Free will, aided by synchronicity and serendipity. Antiquatis is not a "one shot deal," but more of a "blind door" that someone is looking for, rather than being pushed through.

The way I have structured the "community" is that the Antiquatis Institute is the public face, where you can come and visit for a day or several months, to get an understanding of what is going on and what the rapport philosophy is like. Most won't come back, but there will be those that do and stay a while longer--considering the choice, consciously.

Personally, if there were 50 people dedicated to making the idea work, out of the 7 billion on the planet, I'd be thrilled!
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by -OM- » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:06 pm

What I have found in the past is that people join on an impulse, expecting to be "entertained."
Sorry, but I have not found that to be the case in such situations.
As mentioned before, People who make a long trip to "nowhere land" with "strange" people acting in "strange" ways fall into two groups.

the 95% that barely last a few hours to a week, because they IMMEDIATELY realize that this isn't a lazy person's paradise where everything is all "love and light" where they get to be self-oriented rather than rapport oriented.
Those people leave quickly and never come back.
(because all their reading and thoughtfulness beforehand are still just "concepts" and "theorizing", not THE reality)

The other 5% (or less) are serious devotees of this path.
Given the chance they would stay the rest of their lives in "Shangri-La"

However, as naturally happens with everything in life, there comes a point where they hit a emotional/spiritual/mental block where their protective mechanisms are telling them to FLEE this place and people or they are going to die.
It's usually some hidden Tier1 aspect that refuses to change or give up.

I have yet to see this NOT happen to everyone who has reached Tier2, at least once in their growth process.
And they will leave, work out that issue in the "real world" and want to come back -- transformed, even further devoted to their path and the community.

I would hope that there would be Tier2 "council of elders" that deliberated these matters on a case by case basis.
Not a hard, set in stone rule that lacks the wisdom of Tier2 sensibilities.
Personally, if there were 50 people dedicated to making the idea work, out of the 7 billion on the planet, I'd be thrilled!
Yea, when I say 95%, I mean 95% out of 150-200 people total.
So If you got 10-12 serious dedicated people, I think that would be a success.
Says Who?
Why should anyone believe them?
Where's their proof?
What have they said in the past that one can verify as accurate?
What is the temporal process, In Detail, needed so that I or another can subjectively experience and recreate what is claimed?

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by LoneBear » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:41 am

-OM- wrote:Sorry, but I have not found that to be the case in such situations.
We're probably talking about the same thing, just using different terms to express it.
-OM- wrote:the 95% that barely last a few hours to a week, because they IMMEDIATELY realize that this isn't a lazy person's paradise where everything is all "love and light" where they get to be self-oriented rather than rapport oriented.
Those people leave quickly and never come back.
(because all their reading and thoughtfulness beforehand are still just "concepts" and "theorizing", not THE reality)
I have run into this situation often enough.
-OM- wrote:The other 5% (or less) are serious devotees of this path.
Given the chance they would stay the rest of their lives in "Shangri-La"
In the standard, statistical approach, for 200 people... 128 would leave without giving it a chance, 64 would be serious about it but be a bouncer (leave/come back), 8 would stay permanently, and of those 8, 2 would be truly dedicated to the concept.
-OM- wrote:However, as naturally happens with everything in life, there comes a point where they hit a emotional/spiritual/mental block where their protective mechanisms are telling them to FLEE this place and people or they are going to die.
It's usually some hidden Tier1 aspect that refuses to change or give up.
Well, we can use THIS forum as an example. Of the original "crew" of about 30 people, only myself and Arcelius are still active posters. From the stats, it looks like 5 others stop by occasionally for a read, but seldom post anymore. From what I know of the remaining, they have pretty much gone back to a mundane lifestyle.
-OM- wrote:I have yet to see this NOT happen to everyone who has reached Tier2, at least once in their growth process.
And they will leave, work out that issue in the "real world" and want to come back -- transformed, even further devoted to their path and the community.

I would hope that there would be Tier2 "council of elders" that deliberated these matters on a case by case basis.
Not a hard, set in stone rule that lacks the wisdom of Tier2 sensibilities.
Obzistian was part of the original "Fr. Tim" crew from back around 1991. So far, he is the only one to "come back"; perhaps he can comment on this.

I do not believe that there should be any kind of ruling council in a rapport-based community. I would think it should be more along the lines of a true democracy (not the aristocracy passed off as democracy by governments), where all the residents participate equally. I still think it would be best to "bill it" as a one-shot deal, just to make people deeply consider the opportunity--but not a "hard and fast" rule.
-OM- wrote:Yea, when I say 95%, I mean 95% out of 150-200 people total.
So If you got 10-12 serious dedicated people, I think that would be a success.
That's why I'd be thrilled with 50. Not impossible... as the folks here helping with the library proved, there ARE people that volunteer and actually help out--and to those folks, I am extremely grateful for proving to me that there still are honest, hard-working folks out there.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by DSKlausler » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:59 am

LoneBear wrote:... know of the remaining, they have pretty much gone back to a mundane lifestyle... am extremely grateful for proving to me that there still are honest, hard-working folks out there.
Maybe this is an excuse [for inaction] to some. but I have dependents, perhaps not as enlightened as some profess herein. I am not about to dump them into the world at large, so I may choose [and follow] a new path. So, while I toil here electronically, at my desk, earning what is necessary to provide a life for them, I am effectively "in neutral."

After reading here, and elsewhere, I have found it strange that no one really mentions a relative and literal "dummy"... where do they fit into a plan such as this Monastery? Or are they not invited? Or by virtue of their dumminess, maybe they are simply unlikely to stumble into this, so they do not need to be dealt with?
Anything is possible with the proper training.

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by LoneBear » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:54 am

DSKlausler wrote:After reading here, and elsewhere, I have found it strange that no one really mentions a relative and literal "dummy"... where do they fit into a plan such as this Monastery? Or are they not invited? Or by virtue of their dumminess, maybe they are simply unlikely to stumble into this, so they do not need to be dealt with?
I do not understand how you are defining the terms "relative" (family?) and "dummy." The typical, materialistic person would not be interested in the Monastery.

I'm not married, so I do not have any first-hand knowledge on how family structures work in situations like this, so I would defer to the comments of those that do have family ties. I would think it would have to be a family decision, not a commandment from one spouse.

I would welcome anyone to "give it a try" to see if it is right for them. As they said back in Georgia, "come and sit a spell." Since this thread is based on my past experiences, I have run into many people that simply do not know that there IS an alternative to what they've been raised with. I'd bet that many of the CH people here did not realize that there was a rapport-based philosophy that was not "new age" until they encountered the daniel papers, and are now considering a different way to look at life, the universe and everything.

Heck, if some old farmer stops buy, looking for a place to live and take care of the farming aspects of the community, I'm fine with that, too. He is helping by freeing up the resources of others, therefore providing a valuable contribution to the community, at large. And after a while, he would become interested in the philosophy as well. Rapport tends to bring things together, since there is no competition to pull them apart.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Obzistian » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:50 pm

It is time, indeed, that I do comment.
Having reached tier 2, I "instantaneously" knew that I needed to consciously get rid of 'debt'
both monetary and "karmic", which for me have been closely tied together.
I have no intention of bringing any remaining issues, that I would need to "work out" in the
"real world", into a project of this magnitude.
As far as a "mundane" existence, there is not much but "comfort" left in mine.
It is literally, too mundane and lacks any real growth.
I'm well aware that this is exactly where Ego wanted to be, but it is not Ego that propels
me onward toward spiritual development, it is shadow. Which, if I am not mistaken, is
already 4D and waiting for me to get off my ass and DO.
There is the high probability that I would commit the rest of my life to this type of
project, as I have been deliberating it for quite some time. However, until I KNOW
I am ready, I will not.
I wouldn't necessarily have called myself a "bouncer", since I never fully committed to the project;
but rather, possibly a "porter"- docked from time to time, as necessary.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Obzistian » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:03 pm

Living in rapport with others is a great concept, I just haven't met but a handful(generously speaking) of people
who could actually LIVE it on a day to day basis for any real length of time.
It would require being able to live fully in the moment, with nothing from the past(karma) "haunting" it.
Also, being able to not let that which one is or becomes attached to, become binding in a karmic manner.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Obzistian » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:48 pm

So, all that aside, yes, "DO or DO NOT" is where I am.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Obzistian » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:12 pm

As far as a "council of elders" and this being a "one-shot" deal.
I think that if someone has something to contribute to the community, even if for a short
amount of time, they should be able to contribute.
A council of elders may lead to rivalry in voting, eh, old system in my opinion.
Maybe just an honest consensus? With each person existing in the 'community' voicing
what they think of the person and what they might contribute?

As far as a one-shot deal, it may have to be determined by each individual and them
being ready to devote their life to living in rapport, rather than rivalry.
I am almost actually AT this point, meaning I have very few obligations or ties to the
"old system" left.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Ilkka » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:04 pm

Obzistian wrote:I am almost actually AT this point, meaning I have very few obligations or ties to the
"old system" left.
Same here, I dont feel that I have any obligations left. Well maybe my family members brothers and parents, however they are all adults and know whats best for them so no actual ties per se, maybe on emotional level though or shadow has something mysterious things to settle still. I still think all depends on the state of mind, with that comes conviction.
DSKlausler wrote:After reading here, and elsewhere, I have found it strange that no one really mentions a relative and literal "dummy"... where do they fit into a plan such as this Monastery? Or are they not invited? Or by virtue of their dumminess, maybe they are simply unlikely to stumble into this, so they do not need to be dealt with?
Depends on the dummy, if by "dummy" you mean less intelligent being or partially stupid/retarded. How I see people with all their flaws and strong sides there is no "steps" per se, but rather little parts here and there that are missing or not. I mean no one is "normal" human here even the mentally retarded people have some advancies that us "normals" dont have, especially savants etc. I think that they might be welcomed to the Sanctuary as well, but will be contributing something equally as everyone else.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by DSKlausler » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:24 am

LoneBear wrote: I do not understand how you are defining the terms "relative" (family?) and "dummy."
"Dummy" as in intelligence.

"Relative" in the sense of comparison to the people here... which appear very intelligent to me - some are likely genius level in the common usage of the term.

I see other comments, but what I meant was: some may have little to contribute... not necessarily by choice either, simply by virtue of their mental or physical capabilitiy.
Anything is possible with the proper training.

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by LoneBear » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:14 pm

Obz makes an interesting point, in that people don't really have a clue as to how to live together in a rapport-based scenario. Throw them all together in one place and it may fall back to survival--sink or swim--and I would want to see that happen. My thoughts here would be to give each of the initial group their "private space," someplace they can live without the interactions of others and interact as they best can when there are things to be done. Sort of "baby steps" to learn HOW people need to interact without stepping on each others toes--which we are trained to do, from birth.

Initially, it would require some work to work together, since all the preprogrammed habitual behaviors are based in rivalry. But as new pathways are formed, they would get replaced and a clear system of cooperation would result.

Perhaps when some land is obtained, some small cabins scattered around for the initial crew, versus one "community house." I'm reminded of the first few episodes of Gilligan's Island, when the castaways had to build a common hut, simply because they did not have the resources to do individual huts before the storm season set in. With proper planning, the survival necessity can be reduced, so the system can find its own point of balance.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Ilkka » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:28 pm

DSKlausler wrote:I see other comments, but what I meant was: some may have little to contribute... not necessarily by choice either, simply by virtue of their mental or physical capabilitiy.
I've been thinking this aswell about contributing ones abilities. I for one can do almost anything and everything exept shoveling shit 24/7, because any strong smell/scent makes me gag or vomit instantly I mean. My nose is so damn sensitive also I can taste alot better than my other family members, only my mother has alike sense of smell, dont know about her sense of taste though since she drinks every day when not working. I have been trying to keep myself together whenever some strong smell gets into my nose, some smells even gives me headache, tobacco for one those and some other smokes if been breathing too much.

So the real question would be about contributing, how much is enough. Well if LB likes quality over quantity then if one contributes better quality something and others contributes more quantity something else. What would be "fair" in this kind of scene? I think that if there is rapport then the need for "fair" is non-existent, since everybody is doing something to best of their abilities and that IMHO would be enough to me.
I dont like bosses though, since they are the ones who sit on their asses doing practically nothing exept some paperwork every now and then. Well, this was in a factory though so cant be said that all bosses are A-holes.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by LoneBear » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:18 pm

Ilkka wrote:So the real question would be about contributing, how much is enough. Well if LB likes quality over quantity then if one contributes better quality something and others contributes more quantity something else. What would be "fair" in this kind of scene? I think that if there is rapport then the need for "fair" is non-existent, since everybody is doing something to best of their abilities and that IMHO would be enough to me.
I dont like bosses though, since they are the ones who sit on their asses doing practically nothing exept some paperwork every now and then. Well, this was in a factory though so cant be said that all bosses are A-holes.
An important concept for rapport is that the consequence is positive bioenergy--if the system is working, things keep improving. You start to have fun doing what you're doing, get satisfaction from what is accomplished (the power process) and look forward to the next day. You start feeling better about yourself and your environment, the environment responds in kind, feeling better about itself and becoming more productive and beautiful.

Personally, I've not been in that situation with other humans (being a social outcast type), but I HAVE with plants and animals. Plants and animals have predictable contributions, but humans--unless they are pretty familiar with themselves--do not. It is more trial and error. So it comes down to this... what would you LIKE to do with your life? For me, it's construction, gardening and research--what makes my life worth while is that positive feedback from helping others grow and enjoy life, be it plant, animal or person. But I am Aquarius, with my feet firmly planted in the clouds.

Initially the project will need builders to get things going. But as things get going, rough structures will need refinement from artistic people, with sculptures, paintings and other features to bring balance and harmony to the surroundings. As was mentioned on the CH forum, perhaps people could create inspiring music, which is definitely along the lines of rapport, constructing stuff for the soul, rather than the body. As I said, it is pretty much an unexplored field, so I don't want to do many hard-and-fast rules or requirements, so the system can "fit" itself.

I look at it this way... it's pretty difficult to carry both ends of a long ladder by yourself. Even Mortimer Snerd could pick up the other end and make the work easier. And all that is needed there is to recognize that you CAN do something to improve the situation around you--and you do it. That is what starts the process... not giving someone a "hard time" (as is so popular), but giving someone an easier time.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by pgolde » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:05 pm

That is a smart list. I thought I might be ready until I read this and realize I have a few things to work on. Working on it.

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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Obzistian » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:24 am

Lonebear wrote:
"Initially the project will need builders to get things going. But as things get going, rough structures will need refinement from artistic people, with sculptures, paintings and other features to bring balance and harmony to the surroundings. As was mentioned on the CH forum, perhaps people could create inspiring music, which is definitely along the lines of rapport, constructing stuff for the soul, rather than the body. As I said, it is pretty much an unexplored field, so I don't want to do many hard-and-fast rules or requirements, so the system can "fit" itself."

The ability to learn and then create from that which is learned.
'bring balance and harmony to the surroundings' would first require that the person was in balance and harmony with the
surroundings, this can be taught/learned. Tier 2, yes, is preferable, but even those in transition may need to 'see'/'experience'
those already living in rapport with plants, animals and humans, in order to actualize it for themselves.


"I look at it this way... it's pretty difficult to carry both ends of a long ladder by yourself. Even Mortimer Snerd could pick up the other end and make the work easier. And all that is needed there is to recognize that you CAN do something to improve the situation around you--and you do it. That is what starts the process... not giving someone a "hard time" (as is so popular), but giving someone an easier time."

Empowering, not just enabling; but this is where the Sanctuary project must, in my opinion make its greatest 'ascension'
in ethical behavior. By not creating an actual power structure(a tower of Babel, if you will) that would topple everything
that is built. This seems to be the conundrum and I admit, somewhat eludes me as to its solution.
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Re: Some things I've learned from past attempts

Post by Arcelius » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:41 pm

DSKlausler wrote:Maybe this is an excuse [for inaction] to some. but I have dependents, perhaps not as enlightened as some profess herein. I am not about to dump them into the world at large, so I may choose [and follow] a new path. So, while I toil here electronically, at my desk, earning what is necessary to provide a life for them, I am effectively "in neutral."
Why does following a path need to include dumping one dependents on the world? While the Kheb Monastery may be a full-time+ commitment, the preparatory work (or even the same kind of work that is done there) can be done anywhere and outside of a support group. It may be more difficult and take longer but can be done. There is no need to be in neutral.

Having a full-time job in order to earn money in order to buy food, shelter, etc. doesn't mean that you don't time for anything else. Even adding caring for dependents doesn't mean you don't have time for anything else. I won't say this it is easy to do but it is still possible if you choose to make it happen.

Note that I have dependents and work a couple of jobs (one full-time) so I understand how difficult it can be to do this work amidst these other things. I also know it can be done.

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